New dog owners

[spoiledgirls]

With all the BSL going on I'm starting to think that a OSL (Owner Specific Legislation) should be started. There's so much good information out there for people to use. It's not like winging it with a new born of your own! There are too many ignorant owners around no wonder we're having so many problems as responsible owners! I just spent 2.5 hours during my son's soccer practice trying to explain to a family that they're going about it all wrong with their new 8 week old Shitzhu boy! Drag around on leash, push on it's back it get it to sit as some examples. One child was treating it as a doll, carrying it everywhere. Mom said that she didn't want the pup to sleep now since it won't sleep through the night. I told her to get over it and that it's a baby! She wanted to know how much dogs sleep an adult requires. Son brought it over to torment a large dog in its yard! Dad wants to breed it to a co-worker little girl "when they get older" so he can have another. He even mentioned that he acquired his pup from a nursery. The female has the same birth date but from a different source. I wouldn't be surprised if they were littermates. Found out that the so-called nursery was in Quebec supplies Toronto, Ontario area pet shops! Red flags everywhere!!!!!!!!! Gave them a name of a wonderful family pet training facility. I'm starting to work on the breeding question but I have to be careful what I say around his kids. I don't want them to think that their new pup is bad in anyway, not fair to them. After all it's the adult that makes the final decision.

[ck85abc3]

Where is the scientific data that shows, at least to some degree, that human behaviors cause aggressive/vicious dogs? And that it is not the genes?

Or is that not what you meant by "so much good information out there for people to use."

Because, every time I look for this information, all I find are studies that use data from emergency room visits and "reported" dog bites. Of course if that is your data and you refused to realize it's flaws, you are going to conclude that a dogs genes cause aggressive/vicious behavior in dogs.

Also, I guess I have a question about dog training. I was always told on here not to ask a dog to do something if you cannot reinforce it. So when I tell my 8 1/2 month old to sit, if he doesn't, I make him sit by pushing on his butt. This is wrong?

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by ck85abc3

Where is the scientific data that shows, at least to some degree, that human behaviors cause aggressive/vicious dogs? And that it is not the genes?

Or is that not what you meant by "so much good information out there for people to use."

Because, every time I look for this information, all I find are studies that use data from emergency room visits and "reported" dog bites. Of course if that is your data and you refused to realize it's flaws, you are going to conclude that a dogs genes cause aggressive/vicious behavior in dogs.

Also, I guess I have a question about dog training. I was always told on here not to ask a dog to do something if you cannot reinforce it. So when I tell my 8 1/2 month old to sit, if he doesn't, I make him sit by pushing on his butt. This is wrong?

At almost 9 months your pup should know how to sit, and to sit quickly...or you must keep training him. Get him to do at least 50 sits a day...and he will soon do them quickly.
If he knows the "sit" command and he is blowing you off...then sure...push down on his back end to encourage him to sit. Then lavishly praise him.

Gina

[ck85abc3]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

At almost 9 months your pup should know how to sit, and to sit quickly...or you must keep training him. Get him to do at least 50 sits a day...and he will soon do them quickly.
If he knows the "sit" command and he is blowing you off...then sure...push down on his back end to encourage him to sit. Then lavishly praise him.

Gina

Ya, he easilly does 50 fast sits a day. Everytime out the door, everytime he gets fed, and everytime he gets anything else. However, if he is trying to get to a dog to play with him/her, or distracted by something else, he might not listen. Then I force him to sit by pushing on his butt.

I guess it makes sense he was talking about forcing the dog to sit when they want him to sit instead taking the time to teach him to sit. Considering the dog was 8 weeks old.

[spoiledgirls]

Originally Posted by ck85abc3

Where is the scientific data that shows, at least to some degree, that human behaviors cause aggressive/vicious dogs? And that it is not the genes?

Or is that not what you meant by "so much good information out there for people to use."

Because, every time I look for this information, all I find are studies that use data from emergency room visits and "reported" dog bites. Of course if that is your data and you refused to realize it's flaws, you are going to conclude that a dogs genes cause aggressive/vicious behavior in dogs.

Also, I guess I have a question about dog training. I was always told on here not to ask a dog to do something if you cannot reinforce it. So when I tell my 8 1/2 month old to sit, if he doesn't, I make him sit by pushing on his butt. This is wrong?

I guess by trying to be too brief and I didn't explain myself well enough. Yes genes to have some input on the dog personality/temperament but the environment that it's brought up in has a very strong impact. Case in point how many owners of small dogs will not let their pooch interact with a large breed. This can back fire and cause future problems. Neither knows how to behave in the presence of the other. Ignorance is not bliss in this case. My step mom carries her Yorkie everywhere. It has learnt throught the years that whenever there's perceived ground level danger, he will be swept up and protected by Mom. Mom never realized the damage that she has done and she says that she hasn't brought him up to be vicious/nervous. The dog is now 10 years old and I've been working with it for two years and with the help of my girls. He very slowly learning that large dog aren't necessarily evil. Accordingly I don't want my girls to think that all little dogs are aggressive that's why they have friends of different breeds/sizes. I've lost track of the number of times where we crossed pathes with owners carrying their pooch when a large dog came by. I can go on with examples of how owners carelessness/ignorance has had an impact on the dog 's temperament.

"so much good information out there for people to use": this site for one, the numerous books, professional trainers, your vet, breed and kennel clubs, etc. All I was trying to state was, with all the resources available to us, it would be nice if all owners took the time to be responsible and educated. Maybe BSL wouldn't be an issue as it is today! I'm tired of seeing the number of issues that could have been eliviated if the owners only knew the future outcome of their handling. All dogs are born with a blank slate. It first learns from mom, then her owner(s), next it's on to its own owner and lastly the public.

As far as the sit goes pushing on the back causes damage. Your pups skeleton is still growing. More effective and much safer ways are 1) with a hold a treat just above the head and slowly bring it back producing the sit; 2) if you prefer hands on start from the base of the tail (No pressure) and bring your hand under its bottom tucking in (similar to when someone come from behind and pushes the back of your knees causing you to "sit"). If you're trying to reinforce an already known command, take hold of the collar with one hand and tuck with the other at the same time as you saw the command. On leash a quick pop up (without lifting him off the ground) should also give you the wanted "sit". Repeating the command several times before you get the desired action will only teach your dog that he can do what he wants when he wants to! Insist on it right from the start. At 8 months, is going through the adolescent/defiant stage. Patience is the name of the game. You may have to back up a few steps in your training. Keep requiring the proper response and you'll notice once he's outgrown it that he'll better behaved than ever.

[ck85abc3]

Originally Posted by spoiledgirls

I guess by trying to be too brief and I didn't explain myself well enough. Yes genes to have some input on the dog personality/temperament but the environment that it's brought up in has a very strong impact. Case in point how many owners of small dogs will not let their pooch interact with a large breed. This can back fire and cause future problems. Neither knows how to behave in the presence of the other. Ignorance is not bliss in this case. My step mom carries her Yorkie everywhere. It has learnt throught the years that whenever there's perceived ground level danger, he will be swept up and protected by Mom. Mom never realized the damage that she has done and she says that she hasn't brought him up to be vicious/nervous. The dog is now 10 years old and I've been working with it for two years and with the help of my girls. He very slowly learning that large dog aren't necessarily evil. Accordingly I don't want my girls to think that all little dogs are aggressive that's why they have friends of different breeds/sizes. I've lost track of the number of times where we crossed pathes with owners carrying their pooch when a large dog came by. I can go on with examples of how owners carelessness/ignorance has had an impact on the dog 's temperament.

"so much good information out there for people to use": this site for one, the numerous books, professional trainers, your vet, breed and kennel clubs, etc. All I was trying to state was, with all the resources available to us, it would be nice if all owners took the time to be responsible and educated. Maybe BSL wouldn't be an issue as it is today! I'm tired of seeing the number of issues that could have been eliviated if the owners only knew the future outcome of their handling. All dogs are born with a blank slate. It first learns from mom, then her owner(s), next it's on to its own owner and lastly the public.

As far as the sit goes pushing on the back causes damage. Your pups skeleton is still growing. More effective and much safer ways are 1) with a hold a treat just above the head and slowly bring it back producing the sit; 2) if you prefer hands on start from the base of the tail (No pressure) and bring your hand under its bottom tucking in (similar to when someone come from behind and pushes the back of your knees causing you to "sit"). If you're trying to reinforce an already known command, take hold of the collar with one hand and tuck with the other at the same time as you saw the command. On leash a quick pop up (without lifting him off the ground) should also give you the wanted "sit". Repeating the command several times before you get the desired action will only teach your dog that he can do what he wants when he wants to! Insist on it right from the start. At 8 months, is going through the adolescent/defiant stage. Patience is the name of the game. You may have to back up a few steps in your training. Keep requiring the proper response and you'll notice once he's outgrown it that he'll better behaved than ever.

ok, I interpreted it that there is so much good information out there for public officials to use in order to pass OLS instead of BLS. My beef is that there is no "scientific" information out there that tells public officials anything other than pit bulls, rottweilers, and the like kill and are aggressive because of there genes. I've been told so many times that my dog is going to be aggressive when he gets older. What are people supposed to believe when there is no information out there telling them otherwise?

Back to the point that there is so much information for dog owners. There is, I learned it myself. Problem is that no one knows about it and there is really no way for them to know about it. Plus, most foofoo dog owners would rather have their dogs bark, growl, and bite everyone that walks by their yard. Rather than putting a little bit of time and effort into them. The biggest problem to me is that people get dogs thinking it is going to be so wonderful, "I'm going to walk him, play with him, and love him each and every day." Then they chain him/her up in the back yard because he/she is to much trouble.

Thanks for the sit information; he sits all the time when I have treats. I'll have to start incorporating the pressure on his hind leg joints, rather than just pushing on the butt.

[spoiledgirls]

Originally Posted by ck85abc3

My beef is that there is no "scientific" information out there that tells public officials anything other than pit bulls, rottweilers, and the like kill and are aggressive because of there genes. I've been told so many times that my dog is going to be aggressive when he gets older. What are people supposed to believe when there is no information out there telling them otherwise?

There's quite a few more that could be added to "the bred to kill list" but aren't taken seriously. Think of the ratter breeds (terriers) and Badger dogs (Dachshund), historicaly they were bred to rid the farm/property of vermin. But are they on the hit list? No they're to cute and can be carried around if wanted. How can something so small be aggressive afterall! Yeah it's unfortunate that the majority of small dog bites go un-reported. My step-mom was seriously bitten on the leg by one of her dogs while trying to brake up a fight between her Papillon and Yorkie! Gangreen had set in and she came close to loosing her foot. It took most of a year for it to finally heal. Did the medical profession report this incident as is would have been if it was a larger dog? NO! I'd like to see what resource they used to be able to say that Rotties are breed to kill. They're the original all purpose farm dog, (herding, carting, guarding and companion).

Unfortunately, you'll receive comments like these just as long as you own a Rottie. It's up to all of us with the good guys to change the public's perception. It only takes one person to start a pyramid of good news. We happen to own one of the breeds that has been the focus of the media lately. It's now even more important to be very responsible owners and show that they can be great dogs. I believe that if you keep up all the good work that your pup needs you'll both be fine. A good breeder will not be looking to bring out any aggressive traits (that can be found in any breed). A dog with sound temperament will not react unless it's absolutely neccessary. It was explained to me during a temperament test that a good Rotties is more likely to avoid trouble than go searching for it. They are "lazy" (can't think of the proper word) and like to preserve their energy for the proper moment. They know that just thier stature and presence is a good deterant. As your dog becomes older he may become grumpy due to body aches, tolerance may be less than before for example. This is not aggressiveness! They are individuals.

[brunie's mom]

[quote=spoiledgirls;

As far as the sit goes pushing on the back causes damage. Your pups skeleton is still growing. More effective and much safer ways are 1) with a hold a treat just above the head and slowly bring it back producing the sit; 2) if you prefer hands on start from the base of the tail (No pressure) and bring your hand under its bottom tucking in (similar to when someone come from behind and pushes the back of your knees causing you to "sit"). If you're trying to reinforce an already known command, take hold of the collar with one hand and tuck with the other at the same time as you saw the command. On leash a quick pop up (without lifting him off the ground) should also give you the wanted "sit". Repeating the command several times before you get the desired action will only teach your dog that he can do what he wants when he wants to! Insist on it right from the start. At 8 months, is going through the adolescent/defiant stage. Patience is the name of the game. You may have to back up a few steps in your training. Keep requiring the proper response and you'll notice once he's outgrown it that he'll better behaved than ever.[/QUOTE]

I disagree...this pup is almost 9 months of age...gently pushing on his back end to encourage him to sit....when he is blowing off the owner is not going to damage his skeletal system....just like giving a quick pop up (without lifting him off of the ground) is also not going to do neck damage.
This pup is probably close to 90 lbs.

More training, and more work is all that is needed. If he will only work for treats....see if you can get him to work for a toy...or mix the treats and toys up...and then slowly start using praise...and skipping a treat here and there...and slowly phase out treats when you give a command.

During training always use some sort of reward...and be positive.

Gina

[ck85abc3]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

I disagree...this pup is almost 9 months of age...gently pushing on his back end to encourage him to sit....when he is blowing off the owner is not going to damage his skeletal system....just like giving a quick pop up (without lifting him off of the ground) is also not going to do neck damage.
This pup is probably close to 90 lbs.

More training, and more work is all that is needed. If he will only work for treats....see if you can get him to work for a toy...or mix the treats and toys up...and then slowly start using praise...and skipping a treat here and there...and slowly phase out treats when you give a command.

During training always use some sort of reward...and be positive.

Gina

Just to clarifiy, he doesn't only work for treats. He will always work for treats, without treats it usually matters how many distractions are around.

I'm just assuming that if I stay consistent, train, and continue to make everything fun. He will be the dog everyone else wants when he's 3+ years old.