Laser pointers...good or bad?

[Wolfram]

Originally Posted by BostonRott

This is a TERRIBLE suggestion. A) Scruffing is unproven and not based on anything real. For most dogs, it is a nasty experience. For a dog like is being discussed, who seems to be mentally unstable (and most likely geneticaly so), this is a great way to get bit.

As I mentioned, I suggested asking this forum for advise on this. I have already addressed rebuttals of this in a previous post. I did not suggest it as a perfect solution, I suggested he ask you folks about it.

Absolutely NOT! Laser pointers have been shown to lead (in many dogs of many breeds) to obsessive behaviors. This puppy is already showing that he has something MAJORLY wrong with his temperament and creating obsessive behaviors is NOT going to help that.

No one is providing any information on where they are getting their information from on this. I am not trying to be argumentative. I respect good documented info. I would like to read up on this if I could. Please provide me where you are getting this from.

Uncle Shepherd,

I would suggest at this point that you put this puppy down. It sure sounds to me like something is very wrong with his temperament. A 4mos old puppy, even one of high temperament (meaning full of piss and vinegar) should NOT be biting that hard to inflict such damage.

Why not let a trainer look at the dog first? Maybe you are right and this dog is hopeless. Maybe not. Maybe this dog is in pain. Maybe it is having other issues that a vet and trainer could assess first. If it is determined that the dog is bad news after that, then your method would be the correct course.

[BostonRott]

If you are truly interested in laser pointers and canine compulsive disorder, then I would think you would be able to use Google yourself and go look things up. Here is one article for you to read. The rest, you can search on your own. Typically people with a real interest in something (and not just a point to argue) take the time to look things up themselves. The internet is a self-service place. Google canine compulsive disorder and enjoy reading.

[Wolfram]

Originally Posted by BostonRott

If you are truly interested in laser pointers and canine compulsive disorder, then I would think you would be able to use Google yourself and go look things up. Here is one article for you to read. The rest, you can search on your own. Typically people with a real interest in something (and not just a point to argue) take the time to look things up themselves. The internet is a self-service place. Google canine compulsive disorder and enjoy reading.

BostonRott -

I find the tone in your post insulting. You assume that I have no interest in this subject. I merely asked that you give me some sort of actual proof to your side of this debate.

We should probably clear a few things up straight away:

scruffing: Why did I suggest it? Bear was a surprise gift to me. I had no idea that he was coming and less idea of how to bring up a Rott. I bought and borrowed several Rotty books and talked to friends that owned Rotts about the breed. I did research on web about the breed. Bear was a bit of a handful when we first got him. All teeth and nastiness. One of these books
suggested scruffing as a good way to establishing dominance. we did it and Bear became what he is today, a GREAT dog. Now, you can say what you like however, right or wrong in your eyes it was written in a training book.

Laser Pointer: Why did I suggest the LP? Because there is nothing written anywhere in any of the books that I have read so far that said that LP were the 'devil' for dogs. All I know is that Bear seems to like it. Heck, my cat likes it too.

Now, in order to teach you have to be able to learn. Can you do that? Here is something that you should think about. I never suggested that my way was the "WAY". I merely made a suggestion. I even went as far as to say that he should refer to the group for their opinion. Now, once everyone started chiming in about my post, I acknowledged them for their experience and knowledge. I asked for specifics on this LP issue because I really wanted to know about it. If you really are trying to help people here with your knowledge then please learn how to do so without being sarcastic.

[Ayoka]

I've got to say that when I disagree with something someone says I usually look into proof myself...but I'm one of those do-it-yourselfers who prefers to do the research and go to the source. Learning is a verb which, in my opinion means actively pursuing information you don't have, not waiting for someone to hand you something.

If you were not looking to be argumentative your original post in this thread would have simply been "anyone have any information on canine compulsive disorder?" without bringing up a previous debate or even naming names.

[Wolfram]

here is something:

About 2 percent of dogs have canine compulsive disorder, according to Dr. Andrew Luescher, the director of Purdue University's Animal Behavior Clinic. Some of these dogs obsess over shadows and lights. Using a laser pointer with these dogs can exacerbate this very serious condition. In addition, according to nationally-known author and highly-respected dog trainer Pat Miller, a laser pointer should not be used with dogs who show a combination of uncontrolled high arousal and stress-related behaviors, as it may bring out OCD behaviors in dogs prone to it.

I found the above information...

That is 2% of dogs... That means that 98% of dogs do not have problems with LP's. I will however, state that I was incorrect in suggesting this tow to the gentleman with the aggressive pup. It would be a bad thing to do in this case.

[BostonRott]

Originally Posted by Wolfram

Laser Pointer: Why did I suggest the LP? Because there is nothing written anywhere in any of the books that I have read so far that said that LP were the 'devil' for dogs. All I know is that Bear seems to like it. Heck, my cat likes it too.

Books are not always current on info, nor are they usually exhaustive in the points that they cover.

This has been discussed on the forums a good bit, feel free to go read these threads. This is not just "my side" of an argument.

Laser pointer.....

Laser pointer - a good toy?

Laser pointer - verdict?

Study at Purdue -- note in this study the dog who can't drink b/c he's focused on shadow chasing. Laser chasing can often lead to shadow chasing.

Originally Posted by Wolfram

No one is providing any information on where they are getting their information from on this.

As to this statement, it does come across as argumentative b/c your singularly given reason for not believing the statement is that no source is noted. How many posts in this forum list end notes, bibliography, CV or other documentable "sources?" Answer: almost none. In going against the set norm for the forums, you come across as doubting, and therefore, argumentative. As I said before, you are very welcome to use Google or the search feature on this forum to look for more info. If you think the info I've posted is bogus, then claim that and post your documented defense.

[Wolfram]

Ayoka,

I agree. I also think that a lot of people state their opinions as facts as well. I just want to seperate the truth fro fiction. My thinking is if you are willing to get all over cranky with me, then at least have the decency to back it up with the facts.

I can research things on my own. Now that I know, I will do so. (see the above post)

[Wolfram]

I do apologize if it I sound argumentative. It is not intended that way. I am just asking for facts to back things up, places to start looking.