Paradoxes!!!

[damp]

When someone posts about a pregnant bitch, our questions to the poster are many: How old is the dam/sire, do they both have OFA, what lines, do they have titles and do you have homes for the pups etc. etc. The advices are - don’t breed!

When someone tells us, they are looking for a pup, again, we ask questions about the dam and sire, OFA, temperament, titles and the breeder etc. etc. etc. The advices are - go to an ethical breeder.

When someone tells us they just brought home a cute pup from a BYB or a pet store, the same questions are repeated again and again. We inform about the risk of health issues and temperament issues. The advices/suggestions many times are - bring the pup back and don’t support unethical breeding.

In other forums, Rottweiler News and Rescue, we whine and cry about irresponsible breeding, irresponsible owner etc. We tell and agree about what ruin our breed.

In BSL Forum, we try our best to avoid the politicians to take away our rights to own a Rottweiler. We blame the deed and the irresponsible.

In Rainbow Bridge, we cry about all the dogs we have to put to sleep way too early due to health and temperament problems.

In Training/Behavior/Puppy/Vet Corner, we try our best to help the owners to “repair” what the BYBs and puppy mills produced.

Just now, in another thread, we post … but definitely don’t DISCUSS the ethics about what we raise, how we raise and WHY at all we raise … what good it add to the breed.

Therefore, my question is... what would you reply if I posted:
I will bring home my new pup next week. The dam was only 2 years old. Besides this, the ONLY thing I know about this breeding/breeder is, the dam ate two of her pups and the breeder didn’t dare to let the other pups near her to nurse, so they were hand raised!!! ????

What we in all forums discourage so much, we in other threads support!

Do you see the paradoxes too?

[gnwhite]

i will say it. yes i have. in more ways than one.

[observer]

Well, yes, I see it, but there are some explanations.

The poster who posted about the bitch killing the pups (and doesn't know for sure why, and neither do we), asked what to do. That's an emergent (emergency) situation. I'm not surprised that no one said, at that point, run right to the vet and have them PTS. I don't see a huge problem with him or her trying to save the pups. It's certainly up in the air whether the effort will be successful. If they have such a significant health problem that the dam could sense it, well, then the effort likely will fail. And, I don't know what veterinary care is like in Saudi Arabia.

The idea that it might be a temperament related issue in the bitch that could indicate poor temperament in the pups was raised, with the advice to have the bitch spayed.

We don't HAVE here the last situation you described. If we did, we'd tell them not to take the puppy. I would hope that in the event the puppies are saved, and he has to home them, he or she should be ethical and honest enough to describe what happened and advise, if not required, that the pups be neutered/spayed as well. And, if he or she has any doubts about the puppies as they develop, the question of putting them to sleep should be revisited.

[dmoniz]

My substandard, neutered, hand-raised rottweiler can still help better the breed. When he kicks all the properly bred, properly raised intact dogs butts in herding, schutzhund, obedience and any other venue he is allowed to compete in he will raise the bar for all. I'll see you in the ring

[Denise L.]

All I know is if my long coated, crooked mouthed, elbow displasia'd dog was put down as a pup he would not have brightened my days, made an Alzheimers victim smile every day and helped countless grad students endure incredible pressures. How does one measure the value of a life?

I find some comments here incredibly offensive and I understand cultural differences very well as I work among many. The difference here is we don't put each other down. I am going to choose to think it is unintentional.

[SaranBear]

Damp,
I do agree with you about the paradoxes that exist. I do also feel that these issues in many cases are not black and white. I am a firm believer in situational morality. There are many cases in which the dogs in question and the breed itself would be better off if they were PTS. Some may think it's cold, but in a world with a finite amount of resources (be it money, time, what have you) it's not logical to spend a ton of resources on one dog only to end up having the dog PTS later on. Or even worse to have that dog later on end up doing something that has a negative impact on everyone's ability to have these dogs.

Having said that. Bear is from an animal shelter, he is not "perfect" and I love him very much. Many on here have dogs that are from shelters or rescues. Of course we do not love our dogs any less, and in some cases we love them MORE. We have a committment to these animals as we have taken them into our homes. We all gladly fulfill those committments. In the case of the puppies the person had obviously wanted to help these dogs. They were given advice to help them do the best for these puppies. Comments advising them to PTS the puppies were also in the interest of doing the best for the pups. It is the OP's responsobility to determine which advice they like and what to disregard. There is nothing wrong with giving more options to the individual.

I think that each situation and dog has to be looked at individually. Unfortunately there are more dogs in this world than there are homes for them. Some of those dogs will have to be PTS. Why add to the total population of pets, and if we do add then it should be a benefit to the population not a detriment. Will these dogs be a detriment? I don't know.... But someone must assess the risk and make a determination based on the odds. This is something we do EVERYDAY, it's called making decisions. Are the decisions life or death? YES in some cases. In the military I made life or death choices for human beings. Was it easy? NO However they were choices that HAD to be made. You assess the risk based on the knowledge you have at the time. These sentiments are ones that I have seen expressed daily on this forum. I agree with them, and think that they are responsible.

As far as whether or not this is cultural. I don't think it is. I think it is very much dependent on how you live rather than where.

[livertw]

I think I'm going to give my badly bred, out of standard (substandard bitch), long, tall, skillet-headed 90-pound-goofball of a Rottweiler (totally inferior, I'm sure) an extra ear rub and butt scratch when I get home. Before I take her out and shoot her, of course. She was hand-raised (mother died giving birth....oops, people interferred by saving four pups), is spayed, and is the sweetest, most affectionate pet ever. She'll be six years old soon, has never "worked" a day in her life (other than keeping our home safe from tigers), never been sick, has perfect hips and elbows, adores her people, is very obedient and a good neighbor. She sure isn't perfect, but then again, neither are we.

[debbiej]

ah, but life is full of paradoxes and opinions and grey areas.

I remember having this very discussion with my uncle when I was about 13. He raised boxers, he loved the breed, bred for excellence and culled pups that were substandard. I was so angry with him!! We argued for quite a while, and I remember leaving the table in tears. poor little pups! why can't you just let them live? They don't have to have papers or breed?" He tried to explain, but I wouldn't buy it, I was in Bambi mode, humanizing animals. I still can see the point of view I had and I can see his point of view much more clearly now.

About the only thing I would like to throw in here is the idea that there is a big difference between "playing God" and being a good and responsible steward of animals in our care. Anyone remember the book 'A Day No Pigs Would Die"?

For the good of the breed, no bad tempered, badly behaved dog should be allowed to burden the reputation of the breed. Unfortunately, it is hard to decide who is to blame, the dog or the owner. For the good of the breed's health and standard, very few rottweilers are worthy of breeding. I wish this country had breed wardens. What if only well bred dogs were able to be called by a breed name and registered? Everything else, byb, out of standard were called mixes. that would almost solve the dilema. It would cut the profit dreamed of by unethical breeders too.

My head wishes Hilda would have been culled because my heart will break when she can't get up anymore, and it would have been easier to never have known her.

I think there is nothing better than a good debate on a hot afternoon.

[debbiej]

I think anyone who has had experience with any big, strong dog with temperament problems would say no. I seriously re-thought the whole idea of rescue in general and Boris in particular when he left his supper dish growling and snarling at my husband. He was living in the balance while we implemented training and NILIF. If I had children at home, he would have gone to the vet to be pts at that time. He is a good dog, and I believe he is a sound dog that just needed training, but I still approach every new situation for him, well on the side of caution. For example, he meets children on lead, and I am watching everything about him, ready to react. So far, he is gentle with them, but has had very little experience with them.

100# of snarling rottie is not something to be tenderhearted about. No, I would not take a pup with such a start in life, with such a dam. In fact, I will say that I probably will not try to "rehab" another. A big strong breed like a rottweiler needs to have that balance of drive, good nerve, and intelligence that make them safe and sound, and if you don't know for sure it is there, the risk is great. I would rescue again, but only from a rescue where the dog had been evaluated or from a home where I knew the dog. I got Boris out of the shelter, and was not prepared for a dog like him.