Opinions on AKC Standard: Change or Not?

[FredAl]

The Temperament section of the AKC Standard for the Rottweiler contains this sentence: An aggressive or belligerent attitude towards other dogs should not be faulted.

The Behavior and Character section of the FCI standard reads:
Being good natured, placid and fond of children in basic disposition, he is very devoted, obedient, biddable and eager to work. His appearance is natural and rustic, his behavior self assured, steady and fearless. He reacts to his surroundings with great alertness.

My opinion is that the phrase about aggressive behavior in the AKC standard should be taken out. Dog-aggression is a temperament/character fault and SHOULD be faulted in the show ring and everywhere else. If this phrase is taken out, breeders will strive to breed Rotts with better temperament, thereby improving the breed.

I've only been in this Forum a short while and have seen a lot of posts concerning dog-aggressive behavior. This has to change! The AKC standard has to change!

The international press has also been keen on reporting any and every Rott attack. If a country's breed registry (AKC) permits dog-aggression in the standard, then how can this problem be alleviated?

What are your opinions on this?

Better yet, what can we do to get this phrase out of the Rottweiler Standard?

[Diane Heller-Vaccaro]

Here is the problem. These dogs are intact, very really will 2 mature males in most breeds get along, much less the Rottweiler. Then add a female in heat to make matters worse. If the AKC changed that then many nice dogs would be dismissed. It would be nice if the dogs were obedienced trained and under control all the time or socialized and use to other dogs but that sounds like a pet and most of these dogs are not pets and are kenneled outside and dog aggression isn't discouraged.

I know thats not the case with alot of show people here, but it is a fact.

[Nancy Estes]

The AKC standard is actually the American Rottweiler Club standard. The national parent clubs set the breed standards, within certain AKC guidelines. The breed standard is not easy to change. Proposals for changes have to go through a committee and have to be voted on by the membership.

Nancy

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von Dorow Rottweilers

[rottweiler_fancier]

I don't think changing the standard would impact too much as its just a guideline, and most breeders breed by what they, in their own mind, feel a Rottweiler should be. The part of the standard you quoted fully reads:

"The behavior of the Rottweiler in the show ring should be controlled, willing and adaptable, trained to submit to examination of mouth, testicles, etc. An aloof or reserved dog should not be penalized, as this reflects the accepted character of the breed. An aggressive or belligerent attitude towards other dogs should not be faulted.
A judge shall excuse from the ring any shy Rottweiler. A dog shall be judged fundamentally shy if, refusing to stand for examination, it shrinks away from the judge. A dog that in the opinion of the judge menaces or threatens him/her, or exhibits any sign that it may not be safely approached or examined by the judge in the normal manner, shall be excused from the ring. A dog that in the opinion of the judge attacks any person in the ring shall be disqualified."

Its poorly worded and there are a few parts of the standard which could use some changing, but like Nancy Estes pointed out, it is difficult for a Standard to change and it goes through a long process before even coming to AKC to be re-approved.

- Dana -

[WorkinDogz]

You can remove the "bitch in season" from the list of excuses for dog aggression since a bitch in season can't be shown in AKC.

(Unlike SchH...the dogs are expected to work through "distractions" and that includes bitches in season.)

Some dog aggression can be learned; some is genetic.

I do believe that dog aggressive dogs should be EXCUSED from the ring. It's a FLAW. Whether it be flawed training; or flawed character.

[FredAl]

I am quite familiar with the full context of the AKC and FCI standards, the ARC, and the procedures for making the changes.

I think it was around ten years ago that ARC made a revision to the standard when they noticed that the rotts are getting too big. If I remember correctly, they used Barto v t Straotje (sp?), a medium-sized rott, as one of the models for the standard change.

IF they did that to control the size of the rott, can't they do the same to improve the temperament, which is more important to the breed?

[Xaril]

Dog aggression and people aggression is two totally different subjects. A rottie should never be people aggressive unless he/she is protecting a home from an intruder or being used as a K-9 Officer in police work.

Dog aggression is something that is just there in every dogs instictive drive. It can be curbed with training, but it should never be held against him/her. As humans we are agressive towards one another. We have just perfected the way in which we show it. (i.e. sports, business ect....) with the exception of the criminally insane of the human species. Why is it that we feel because we are humans that we have the right to control how the dog species interacts within their world. It is in their nature.

Ever met someone you didn't like from the start. I have. Of course I never jumped on them and bit them, but I sure as heck avoided them whenever possible. I guess we should teach our dogs how to look at each other and put on a false smile, and then talk behind each others back like humans do. At least they have the drive to be upfront with each other.

Just because a rottie is aggressive towards other dogs doesn't mean that there temperment is bad. Or they should be put down. I'll bet even the most obedient K-9 in the world is somewhat dog aggressive. When in a pack type situation, one dog is going to establish dominance. Besides how do we know what they are saying to one another when in a situation where there are a lot of other dogs around them.

[Anton]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz:
You can remove the "bitch in season" from the list of excuses for dog aggression since a bitch in season can't be shown in AKC.

In the AKC conformation ring, a bitch in season IS allowed to compete. It can make for an interesting show, if the handler has to try to control a hot, passionate male. http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/biggrin.gif

I know they are not allowed to compete in obedience, but I'm not sure about agility or herding. I'd have to check the AKC website.

[WorkinDogz]

g o

Originally posted by Anton:
In the AKC conformation ring, a bitch in season IS allowed to compete. It can make for an interesting show, if the handler has to try to control a hot, passionate male. http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/biggrin.gif

Well then I guess it would pay to have FEMALE handlers on male dogs; we're pretty accustomed to "platzing" hot, passionate males. http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/biggrin.gif

[FredAl]

Hi Xaril,

Just a friendly banter for discussion's sake:

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Originally posted by Xaril:

Just because a rottie is aggressive towards other dogs doesn't mean that there temperment is bad. Or they should be put down. I'll bet even the most obedient K-9 in the world is somewhat dog aggressive.
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Dog aggression is an undesirable fault -- temperament, genetic, training or socialization. Undesirable = Bad. Nothing in the posts mentioned anything about putting down any dog. And there are millions of non-dog-aggressive dogs. You will find them working as guide dogs, in Canine Search-and-Rescue, Schutzhund, Therapy-Dogs, AKC CGC and obedience classes, Herding, and most especially, as pets in loving homes.

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Originally posted by Xaril:

As humans we are agressive towards one another. We have just perfected the way in which we show it. (i.e. sports, business ect....) with the exception of the criminally insane of the human species.
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If that's the case, then we need to change the standard for Human Beings!! http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/biggrin.gif

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Originally posted by Xaril:

Why is it that we feel because we are humans that we have the right to control how the dog species interacts within their world. It is in their nature.
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This has been going on since humans domesticated the dog. Humans have molded, modified, altered, and improved the dog to suit their needs.

It is also in their nature to copulate everytime the bitch is in season, and mark their territory wherever they please. I feel I have the right to control this -- for their own good, and for my carpet's good. http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif

[WorkinDogz]

ABSOLUTELY Fred!

Removing that "dogs will be dogs" excuse allows the dogs TEMPERAMENT and CHARACTER to be evaluated UNBIASLY.

Dogs WILL be dogs; as long as they are serving MAN.

[Xaril]

I agree fred/workin, but the point I was trying to make was that it should not be faulted. Thats the AKC standard, and I'm sure that before the standard was set, many experts were asked. I'm sure that many behavior specialist were asked about dog agression before it was decided what the AKC standard would be. They obviously must have agreed that dog agression is not a fault in the breed. But everyone has an opinion on every aspect of the AKC standards for the breed. This just happens to be one of mine. But I'm not saying the blatant attacks on every dog your rottie sees is acceptable. We all know that. Proper socialization is the key, but eventually your rottie will meet another K-9 that it just doesn't like, does that mean that your rottie should not be a champion. If your take your rottie to a competition and it shows agression to the rottie on your right, you would accept being DQ'd. You'd just walk out of the ring all happy? I mean I don't want to come off like I let my rottie go around biting whatever dog she chooses.

In response to your opinion about "nobody said put a dog aggressive rottie down". I disagree. That is what your saying not in words but long term. If the AKC standard is changed then a dog agressive rottie should never be bred, and should never be papered, to eliminate the dog agressivness from the breed. According to your opinion, (not that you said it) we should just put them all down and start over with the genetic makeup we want in a rottie.

A lot of times a rottie is like a grab bag at the five and dime. You never really know what your gonna get, sure you have a good idea because of the parents/grandparents, but is that really the best indicator? Why do you think most breeders offer a garauntee? Is it because they just know there rotties are that good and they will never have to uphold it, that the pups are going to be robots of the parents, exact clones? If any breeder believes that then they seriously need a reality check. Again this is just my opinion.

[FredAl]

Good points, Xaril. But I have to disagree on some of them. It'll make this post longer, but I have to quote you.
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quote from Xaril:
Thats the AKC standard, and I'm sure that before the standard was set, many experts were asked. I'm sure that many behavior specialist were asked about dog agression before it was decided what the AKC standard would be. They obviously must have agreed that dog agression is not a fault in the breed.
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I don't like to speculate, but I would think that if there were any behavior specialists involved in writing the standard, the dog-aggression part would not be included. Behavior specialists should know the real causes of dog-aggression and will not allow it in the standard. ADRK and/or FCI did not include this phrase in their standard. Can this be the reason why there is less dog-agrresion in German Rottweilers?

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quote from Xaril:
If your take your rottie to a competition and it shows agression to the rottie on your right, you would accept being DQ'd. You'd just walk out of the ring all happy?
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I will not be happy about it and I will not accept being disqualified. Faulted, yes. Disqualified, no.

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quote from Xaril:
In response to your opinion about "nobody said put a dog aggressive rottie down". I disagree. That is what your saying not in words but long term.
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Here is my original post:
My opinion is that the phrase about aggressive behavior in the AKC standard should be taken out. Dog-aggression is a temperament/character fault and SHOULD be faulted in the show ring and everywhere else. If this phrase is taken out, breeders will strive to breed Rotts with better temperament, thereby improving the breed.

Nothing more, nothing less.

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quote from Xaril:
If the AKC standard is changed then a dog agressive rottie should never be bred, and should never be papered, to eliminate the dog agressivness from the breed.
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If a rottie proves to pass on this undesirable trait of dog-aggressiveness, then it should not be bred. Neutered, but not put down.

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quote from Xaril:
According to your opinion, (not that you said it) we should just put them all down and start over with the genetic makeup we want in a rottie.
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You're right, I didn't say it. And I never gave that impression in any of my posts.

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quote from Xaril:
A lot of times a rottie is like a grab bag at the five and dime. You never really know what your gonna get, ...
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I agree with you. And that is why we have to try our best to breed the desirable traits, and weed out (or breed out) the undesirable traits like dog-aggression. We don't have to put down the dog-aggressive ones, we just have to breed to the dogs with a stable temperament. http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif

[Xaril]

Good points. I always enjoy hearing the opinions of others.

[FredAl]

It's time for a change in the AKC standard anyway. They have to start accepting undocked (with tails) rotts in the show ring.

Since FCI (the international canine organization) already has a provision for this, then ARC and AKC should start considering a revision of the standard.

This time, take out that dog-aggressive phrase! It's not in the FCI standard either.