Holland Line, German Line, American Line ????

[Dutches]

[This message has been edited by Dutches (edited September 22, 1999).]

[Baren]

This is a big issue you brought up!

Rottweilers originated in Germany a very long time ago. Today they are bred nearly everywhere in the world and everyone uses different dogs. Consequently, there are many different bloodlines. All however originated from Germany.

Germany breeds to the ADRK standard. Which is the official standard. The FCI standard which is the international standard used by most countries of the world (FCI members), is the same standard translated into English.
America and Britain however, have slightly different standards. But the difference is very small.

The dogs that are the closest to these standards and win the most shows and trials or produce dogs that win many show and working titles, tend to be the ones that make up the most famous bloodlines

Ofcourse, some breeding lines are better than others. And every country has many bloodlines. But I believe that the best breeding lines are the German lines. ADRK lines. These are the lines that produce the best dogs. And these are the lines that are used by everyone else to develope their own lines.
Then to my opinion comes Belgium and the Nederlands and Italy and America.

However, if we look at some pedigrees from dogs in these countries, we find that German dogs are very close back to them.
For example, Eves vom Eulenspiegel is a dog that was used very much to develope English rottweiler lines. And I have seen that Dingo vom Schwaiger Wappen is in nearly all American lines 4 or 5 generations back.

Each line produces different dogs. And dogs that come from the same bloodlines, carry the same characteristics which are typical for that bloodline. That is why it is commonly easy for someone who studies these lines to tell if a dog comes from a particular bloodline.

Every line has some strong good points and some faults that are common in the offspring of these lines. And every breeder just as every judge has a different opinion about what is more important on a dog and what is a bigger fault........

That is why it is not possible to say if some lines are better than others.

It is up to every breeder to choose their favourite bloodlines and use them to develope their own.

[German Vanegas]

Baren,
Weren't Rottweilers used by Romans during the Roman Empire era (nowadays reduced to Italy), as multi-purpose service dogs?... and then rescued from extinction by the Germans, particularly in the town of Rottweil?... I don't think is totally right to say that the Rottweiler originated in Germany, even though this country has done so much for the succesful development of the breed, no doubt here! http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/smile.gif

[CarolineS]

I believe the dog that the Romans left in Germany was a mastiff type dog similar to the Rottie. You are right in that the farmers of Rottweil then put this dog to work. Quoting from an article by Kathy Salzberg, "Most Rottie historians agree that today's Rottie is a descendant of the German working dogs, which was freely bred to sporting dogs, herding dogs, terriers and bulldogs. This resulted in a mix of traits extremely useful to farming communities that are still present in the modern Rottie."

So it seems that the Romans had the ancestor of the modern day Rottie, but the Germans engineered him into what he is today. http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/smile.gif

[Ct. Tom]

Baren,
Like when they came over the Alps and had no more use for them?Humm.... wonder if they were into confirmation white chests anyone?

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Ct.Tom

[German Vanegas]

Ct Tom is right. Back then the Rottweiler was considered only a working dog. Show conformation was not even an issue, but only structural conformation and utility.

Caroline,
Throughout history dog breeds have been crossed at will to mutate and change original characteristics to satisfy personal quests for new a breed. That it's exactly when the term "purebred" is so questionable. Even the Rottweiler has gone through major changes since the original one. In the old times the Rottweiler was truly a medium size dog and quite sleek compare to the large dogs of today with the chunky appearance. And as much as in the town of Rottweil, Germany, it was saved from extinction, history suggests that the Romans used the Rottweiler's base line extensively as a utility dog... let's not forget that the Romans, in their "expansionist" policy, had the opportunity to get different dogs from all over the Old Continent and Asia, and so Romans are quite responsible for the developing of many of today's dog breeds.

[CarolineS]

The Romans supplied the base dog used in the eventual development of the Rottweiler. The rest of the dogs crossed with the original Roman dog were from Germany, hence my statement that Rottweilers were "developed" by the Germans, not the Romans. I have a feeling that we are discussing semantics here and none of it answers the original question, so I'm going to drop it. http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by CarolineS (edited September 18, 1999).]

[German Vanegas]

Well, that depends on your own findings. My research on this issue, from several historians, is the following version (Although it is quite summarized and condensed, of course):

The molossian dog (the base for all mastiff type of dogs) is believed to come from Asia. These molossian dogs were greatly appreciated by Greeks and Romans... some historians say that the Tibetan mastiff was brought to Greece by Alexander the Great. But is believed today that the Molossian dog was brought to England by Phoenician sailors and that this animal became the ancestor of the English mastiff. The Neopolitan mastiff is the Italian version of the Molossian of the East (Former Persia, now the Iran-Iraq region). Attrition from a combination of poor breeding practices and life during the middle ages nearly demolished this breed. Sicilian Kings brought it back by mixing the Dogue de Bordeaux (French mastiff) with local Italian ancient mastiffs. The Dogue of Bordeaux is also a truly descendant of the molossian Asian dog and a has a proven history too.

The Rottweiler, as well as other mastiff type of dogs, is descended from the molossian of the Tibet (Tibetan mastiff). The Romans had herding dogs and household guardians, and they highly praised this molossian dog from the Tibet that it is believed was crossed with other ancient dogs, Thus, the Rottweiler base line was born. There is documented evidence of two Rottweilers carved in stone upon a portal of a Roman home (Now Italy). These proud robust dogs were taken to Great Britain during the Roma Empire conquest, and remained there... but, in time, they finally found their way to Germany, concentrated particularly in the town of Rottweil. Legend holds that men and dogs drove their herds to the market as equals in the task. However, highwaymen were a real threat in those days and the butchers placed their full purses upon the necks of the dogs. thus did the Rottweiler's reputation as the best of all guardians came into being. No thief would risk life or a limb to challenge them Rottweilers! Towards the close of the 1800's cattle drives by dogs were replaced by the railroad, and so the Rottweiler found himself "out of work". It is said that in 1900 there were only a couple of Rottweilers could be found in the town of Rottweil, Germany. Within a few years the qualities that made the Rottweiler the king of guardians allowed him a new occupation: police work. In the early 1900's the Rottweiler was admitted by the German Police Association as one of the very few dog breeds accepted for the task... and the rest is "history"!... So I think we can agree that Germans saved the Rottweiler from dissapearing altogether http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/smile.gif

And what about the so-called "oldest coursing mastiff on Earth", the Cane Corso?... It is a fabricated story from cross-breeding the Neopolitan mastiffs with Rottweilers in the early 1980's... and then brought in from Italy to the USA by Tom Sottile, in the late 1980's, as this "rare-forgotten" new (?!) breed that nobody knew about it before!!!... Yeah, right.

[Baren]

German,
I agree with you on your version of the breed history. Some say that the Tibetan mastiff was brought to Europe by Alexander the Great and others by Marco Polo. Perhaps both.
The rottweiler is descended by the Tibetan mastiff and a European dog. But the rottweiler was born long before the Tibetan mastiff was brought to Europe. The History of this breed is very long and detailed. It is divided into many stages. The rottweiler breed has gone through a lot, including things like parachuting with the Brazilian army! What you said about people hanging their money on the necks of rottweilers is also true.
The main story line is that this dog was descended by the Tibetan mastiff, it was kept by the Romans for a long period of time and then Legend has it that when the Romans left the city of Rottweil, they tried to kill all the rottweilers so no one else could use such usefull dogs. (Legend). And it is said that 3 of these dogs were hidden and kept in Rottweil........
Since then, the Germans bred these dogs and called them rottweilers....
So ok. I guess you are right. My mistake. The rottweiler did not originate in Germany. It only survived and was developed in Germany. But it didn't originate in Italy either. Some of these dogs were only kept and used by the Romans. We don’t actually know where the 1st rottweilers were born. Probably in the Himalayas.

But all this happened thousands of years ago. I don't see what this has to do with today’s bloodlines.

[German Vanegas]

baren,
I agree!