The working Rottweiler

[Hackel]

Ok, lemme deal with the issues that a couple have raised...

#1 - Baren:

"Belgium and Maggie did not make a wrong judgement, so how do you know that what they say is based on just what they hear in this forum?"

Fist of all, if you read my post...I never stated that they made a wrong judgement. I said, and I quote -

"But, I would advise you not to make judgements about the US simply based on
what you hear in these forums."

I said "advise", no where did I say that they base everything they say on what they hear on this forum. It was not meant to be argumentative...but to simply say that one can get a better picture if one is living in the situation...rather than hearing it from others.

#2 - Maggie, I think you need to re-read your post as well. Look at belgium's post where he says:

"i think instead of arguing you usa breeders should try to work together.its the only
way to be able to breed some good dogs,the working lines need the show dogs and vis
versa."

Then you (Maggie) said:

"Well put belgium,I totally agree,and if everyone did work together we would see alot
better examples of the breed."

If you "totally agree" with his post then you are referring US breeders as well.

Sorry to do all this quoting, but I am very serious about my posts and make a concerted effort not to mis-quote others. I do understand your points Maggie and agree with most of them.

[This message has been edited by Hackel (edited March 27, 1999).]

[German Vanegas]

Sorry Maggie, it's not a worldwide problem as you stated. There are countries where they have breeding control programs and so they produced high quality dogs. There is no excuse for lack of breeding control and temperament testing programs in a superpower country like the USA, leader of the world... we should lead the way, but in reality we set a very bad example in this particular issue!

[Maggie]

German,I realise that A FEW European countries have their breeding controlled in this manner and thats why they acheive what they do,but there are thousands of other countries who have no control what so ever,so to me it is a world-wide problem which needs addressing,otherwise with the anti dog movement out there we will find ourselves in the same situation as Holland.

------------------
Maggie Murray
Rottweiler Specialist Judge
New Zealand

[German Vanegas]

Maggie, the USA can't be compare just to any country in the world. Like I said, we should lead the way and set the example, as far as this issue of appropiate dog breeding practices and regulations is concerned.

[antonschinkel]

And what is the situation in Europe ?
I can only guess, but i can tell you something about the situation in Holland.

When we went out for our first dog, we got our breeder through the Dutch Rottweiler Club
(RCN). It seemed like a responsable breeder.
We got our Rottie within two days and after that we never heard from the breeder again.

Ok we spend two years, reading books and talking to people about Rotties, before we even looked for a puppy. My wife quit her job just so we could raise our new puppy.
i ques we can say we've put some time in it all.

Still some breeders (RCN members) are in it for just the money. And then there are a loth of breeders who are not in any way connected to the RCN.
I would like to see organisations such as RCN to have more control on there breeders. Breeders not a member off this organisation should be banned, cause the don't follow breeds standards.

I think that Holland is one off the best organized countries in Europe, i don't want to think about what is going on in the East of Europe.....

Am i to worried ?

Anton

(185 Rotties where registred last month in Holland)

[CarolineS]

Anton,

I'm not a breeder, but from what I've gathered on this board and from others I know, there are problems everywhere. Even Orville said, in another thread, that there have been some attacks in Germany, I guess as a result of unknowledgeable owners and, in some part, from dogs passing the breeding tests that really shouldn't have. In Germany, because of governmental controls on breeding, I would imagine there are fewer problems.

In North America, the numbers of Rottweilers are huge. I only have figures for 1996: Canada 2,674 and in the US 89,867. In the three years since then, they have become even more popular, so I'm sure the numbers are even greater. With such a demand, there is no way there are enough reputable breeders to meet such an enormous demand and that is where most of our problems have come in.

Of course, you can't blame it all on the breeders. I, personally, know of two people who refused to spend more than $400 on a dog. In Canada, a healthy dog from good lines, with a stable temperament is upwards of $800. Needless to say, one of the two I mentioned has hip dysplasia and the other is a nasty SOB.

I would imagine the RCN is no different from the Canadian Rottweiler Club. There are certainly breeders who belong to it that are not knowledgeable or ethical. It is probably no different in the States.

I have heard more than one breeder say that restrictions (not a ban) may be the only way to save the Rottweiler. If it were harder to get permission to breed and harder to be able to own one, the popularity would drop and the breeders who were in it only for the money would disappear.

Of course, that opens a whole other can of worms. What type of restrictions and would they be fair? And the biggest problem of all, no matter what you do, you can't legislate common sense!

[German Vanegas]

Caroline,
Breeding and temperament testing control programs could be implemented by our own AMERICAN KENNEL CLUB "AKC". But that would mean a tremendous reduction in revenue for the AKC. You see, ANY person that mates dogs and have them registed with AKC, sends out a litter registration applicattion with a fee $$$, and Viola! there you have "purebred" dogs with "papers". Sad but true. In a way, AKC encourages "backyard mating" and puppy for profit kennels, due to the fact that it is easy to get AKC registration papers and then advertise puppies as "AKC registed pups". This misleading advertisement makes people believe, in good faith, that AKC registed puppies are without a doubt "purebred" dogs meeting the desired standards. But we know better than that.

Now, the number of AKC registed Rottweilers went down last year... but for all the wrong reasons: the media has created an uproar portraying Rottweilers as vicious dangerous dogs... so people is getting very afraid to buy Rottweiler, due to the UNFAIR bad reputation that is being spread out. Even though those are myths and misconceptions, nevertheless they are causing a social impact, so politicians are seeing a "window of opportunity" to gain notoriety by "protecting" the people against "dangerous dog breeds"... However, the REAL issue: BAD BREEDERS AND BAD OWNERS = BAD DOGS, is being totally ignored!

Government restrictions and legislation on dog ownership is a worse "cure than the disease itself". How do you think the Government would soundly and intelligently, based on REAL facts, could legislate the "right" to own a dog? (whatever the targeted breed is)... probably by impossing ridiculous and unrealistic restrictions and penalties. This could be the end of the breed. I guess the Rottweiler would become an "elite" breed for the selected few that could meet and afford such Government restrictions. Think about it.

[CarolineS]

German,

I'm very glad to hear that the number of registered Rottweilers is going down in the States. This breed fading back to obscurity and out of the headlines can only be good. It would be like the "old" days when only those who truly loved, understood and appreciated Rottweilers owned them.

And you sure don't have to tell me about the BAD OWNER/BAD DOG relationship. I'm the one who writes letters about this all the time and actually had one published in a major Toronto newspaper that is read by hundreds of thousands of people. I am also not above telling owners of large, obnoxious, aggressive dogs that they better do something about them or they'll find themselves reported to Animal Control. The comment I get most often about my dog is, "Wow, she sure is well-behaved". I can hear the implication "for a Rottweiler" that they leave unsaid. It is so sad.

If restrictions were imposed, it would be a sad day for all of us as we'd have to get rid of our beloved dogs, or not be allowed to get another when the time came. I'm not for it, I was just reporting comments I'd heard. Unfortunately, politicians are only too quick to jump on any bandwagon that seems like it'll get votes. All we can do is keep on talking and writing and hope something sinks in.

As usual, with most of our threads these days, we seem to be off topic again, but I guess this preys on all our minds.

[Orville Story]

Caroline, The controls on breeding is not done by the government. This is done through the German Rottweiler Breed Club, The ADRK.

[Nancy Estes]

Thank you Nick! If I'm correct, the point your are making (and I think it needs to be made) - whether you like it or not, this is the United States and chances of changing AKC rules are minimal, especially in the short run. The US is never going to be like Germany, ARC is never going to be like ADRK. Instead of trying to out-holier-than-thou each other we should all, in our own little corners of the US, try to do the best we can by the breed. Everyone can make some sort of contribution, even if it is only educating one person. Grousing about conditions in the US isn't going to accomplish anything positive. Pointing the finger at another breeder/owner isn't going to accomplish anything positive either. I might mention also that I think a lot of this *preaching* is being done to the choir.

Nancy

------------------
von Dorow Rottweilers
doggo@hotbot.com

[Maggie]

Well put Nancy and Nick, like I said earlier,if you can educate one person a week in your neck of the woods,then be happy.

------------------
Maggie Murray
Rottweiler Specialist Judge
New Zealand

[German Vanegas]

For those that have been members of this Board for a while, well know that I have WARNED people before about Germans breeders (or other foreign country dog breeders). THEY DO NOT sell their best dogs to other countries, they keep the best prospects for themselves. So what it's new? If you really want a good German import, you have to well know who you are dealing with and do the appropiate in-depth research. People that imports dogs get duped all the time, and much less of what they bargained for (Perhaps Nick could remember me elaborating on this same issue before).

In the other hand, what are your propose solutions to reduce "backyard breeding" and "puppy mills kennels"? Those so-called "breeders" represent about 80% of all Rottweilers around...

By the way, why do you think the United States Rottweiler Club "USRC" can do it, but AKC can not? Any reasonable explanation? I do believe breeding and temperament surveys are feasible, but for money reasons the AKC couldn't care less. And that it's the thruth!

[This message has been edited by German Vanegas (edited March 30, 1999).]

[CarolineS]

Orville,

Sorry, I have obviously been misinformed. I was under the impression that the VDH was answerable to the Ministry of Agriculture. Oh well, the closest I come to being informed about Germany is that my surname ends in "mann" (and I only come to that through marriage).

[Tony4Rotts]

You hit the nail right on the head German. I guess money beats out common sense when you refer to the "AKC"!

This is just a little introduction to all those newbees out there in this forum!

Look to these people for information:
Orville, Hackel, German, Eve, Maggie, Belgium, CarolineS, Nick, Nancy, Colin, and if i can remember some more i would put them down but these people are to me very well informed and though "Opinionated" at times they can bring so much knowledge for your every need! I applaud you <clap> Job well done!

[nick teifke]

Wow, I agree rotts, great reading it is, sorry I couldnt have joined in earlier.
A couple of points I found real interesting though, but I wont quote because I know alot of people feel the same way.
In Germany, there is "byb" going on, is there not? Not all German Rottweilers are registered with the ADRK right? And it makes sense if you think about it, a kennel in Germany takes two rotties who cant work for crap, dont fit the standard and can hardly be called rottweilers. They sell them to some idiot in the states who doesnt do their research and has no idea who or what they are dealing with as a pet at a pet price. The person in the states (or wherever) thinks this is the greatest thing since sliced bread that they are getting a "German Rockwilder" at a killer price, and the rest is history.
Another point I noticed, while uniting breeders is a great idea and having the AKC implement breed suitability tests is even a better idea, it will never ever happen. You can fight and kick and scream until you're blue in the face and it wont do a bit of good.
One thing we can do is make sure our breedable rotties have breedable titles, solid temperments, fit the standard and represent the breed in a positive manner. And if they dont spay or neuter them. And if you feel thats not enough, then EDUCATE others to do the same.

-flame shield up-


------------------
nick teifke
nteifke@kcc.com
www.angelfire.com/wi/1strottie
icq# - 28884141