Who Wants A Problem Dog?

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by Cash

I am a bit confused by what you are looking for in answers Trish? Are you wanting to know how far down the list some experienced owners are willing to go and why, hypothetically or historically, or both?

Neither. It was intended as an educational post to those who feel that they can dump their problem dogs on experienced owners rather than deal with the problem themselves.

The fact of the matter is, those of us who may be qualified or are experienced, know better than to get these problem dogs in the first place. We've also earned the right to have good dogs that we can do amazing things with. Why would we want to condem ourselves to neurotic dogs created by other people (breeders, abusive/negligent/novice owners, shelters, irresponsible rescues, etc.) for 10 - 15 years? Only to leave those people who created such dogs to obtain / create new ones to ruin?

[Cash]

Originally Posted by TrishB

Neither. It was intended as an educational post to those who feel that they can dump their problem dogs on experienced owners rather than deal with the problem themselves.

What if they aren't equipped to? I'd much rather see a dog surrendered with the possibility of finding an owner who can manage the dog, verse in a wrong home with no chance of a quality of life because of ignorance on the owners behalf.

Originally Posted by TrishB

The fact of the matter is, those of us who may be qualified or are experienced, know better than to get these problem dogs in the first place. We've also earned the right to have good dogs that we can do amazing things with. Why would we want to condem ourselves to neurotic dogs created by other people (breeders, abusive/negligent/novice owners, shelters, irresponsible rescues, etc.) for 10 - 15 years? Only to leave those people who created such dogs to obtain / create new ones to ruin?

I don't think anyone should condemn themselves to such an incorrect Rottweiler, regardless of experience. If the dog is that bad off it should be euthanized, period.
I believe everyone has the right to have a good dog, not just the qualified or experienced.

[habitual]

I think if you get a dog with the intent on re-habilitating it from most of the options you are just contributing to the bad side of any breed. If you get a dog and didn't know that it had certain issues* then work through them the best you can, but don't exhaust yourself on cases that will never be. There are so many happy healthy dogs, who may need just some training and manners that deserve that home and your energy so much more than the others. If there is a serious issue with a dog that is not corrected easily or that could be threat, maybe it is better of PTS. No dog wants to live a miserable life.

And to the poster that compared dogs to adopting human children- If you can't tell there is a HUGE difference between dogs and children and they should not be compared

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by Cash

What if they aren't equipped to? I'd much rather see a dog surrendered with the possibility of finding an owner who can manage the dog, verse in a wrong home with no chance of a quality of life because of ignorance on the owners behalf.

Sure. My point is that experienced / qualified owners aren't going to line up to get the problem dog. We've already got dogs, that's how we got experienced and are now qualified! And although we may from time to time take in a rescue, while you have your dog, it is up to you to do everything in your power to help it (i.e. not just post on the internet, assume someone is just going to take it off of your hands and you won't have to do anything).

Yes, a surrendered dog, when it's issues are FULLY DISCLOSED to those taking it in, may have a chance. It's the full disclosure that people often miss.

Originally Posted by Cash

I don't think anyone should condemn themselves to such an incorrect Rottweiler, regardless of experience. If the dog is that bad off it should be euthanized, period.
I believe everyone has the right to have a good dog, not just the qualified or experienced.

I couldn't agree more. However, by offering an outlet to these problem dogs and the people who want to dump them, we're continuing the cycle. We're not saving anyone or anything if we just bail them out.

Scenario: Novice owner is WAY over their head when they get a weak nerved puppy from a BYB. Dog is now a menace and they are not able to handle it. The breeder wants nothing to do with them.

Experienced owner takes on dog, dedicates all of their time and energy to this one dog (problem dogs are demanding). New owner has no time for any other dogs / sports / showing / venues as problem dog can't hack it / isn't appropriate in those venues. Experienced owner can't take on any new dogs because problem dog won't get along / will pass on problems to other dogs / is too demanding. Experienced owner loses 10 years to problem dog (considering the average lifespan of a human is only 72 - that's one HECK of an investment). Loses all of that time to enjoy dogs / dog sports. During that time they would have normally taken on 3 - 4 more dogs to give wonderful lives to - but couldn't because problem dog took every minute of every day. 1 dog where 3 - 4 could have had wonderful lives....

In the meantime, Novice owner feels great about having owned a <insert breed here> and feels that they know more now and can get another. Reality is they don't know because they didn't get to learn because the problem wasn't dealt with by them.

BYB who didn't have to take back problem dog has since been breeding because obviously, there's a market for their dogs. There's now been multiple litters of the same lines / breedings, generating the same problem dogs.
---------------------------------
Don't get me wrong. I truely admire the work that rescues do. The good ones are worth their weight in gold. I've given my time and my personal money many times.

However, there has to be some sort of break in the cycle. Problem dogs require tough decisions. There aren't homes for every dog. Heck, there aren't enough homes for the GOOD dogs that need homes! Like it or not, life is too short not to give the good dogs every opportunity for the wonderful life they deserve; without putting yourself, your family or your other pets at risk. Some dogs cannot be saved, some dogs are more deserving than others.

[StephanieandToby]

I would be willing to deal with a dog that jumped up on people and that's it...no problem dog for me...!!I don't have the patience...

[Cash]

Originally Posted by TrishB

Sure. My point is that experienced / qualified owners aren't going to line up to get the problem dog. We've already got dogs, that's how we got experienced and are now qualified! And although we may from time to time take in a rescue, while you have your dog, it is up to you to do everything in your power to help it (i.e. not just post on the internet, assume someone is just going to take it off of your hands and you won't have to do anything).

Of course. Who is going to stand in line for a problem? But, and MY point is, Some 'problem' dogs turn out to be fantastic dogs in the right hands. Nobody, that I hold in respect, will contribute to the negative side of the breed. But, some of my most treasured Rottweiler friends have 'dogs that need managing' on their hands and are 25+ years into the breed. They saw in a dog something that noboby else could. That, to me, is experience and qualified.

Originally Posted by TrishB

Yes, a surrendered dog, when it's issues are FULLY DISCLOSED to those taking it in, may have a chance. It's the full disclosure that people often miss.I couldn't agree more. However, by offering an outlet to these problem dogs and the people who want to dump them, we're continuing the cycle. We're not saving anyone or anything if we just bail them out.

We don't rely on an inexperienced owner for full disclosure. We test and assess the dog ourselves, and rely on that.

I see what you are saying, and in a black and white world it makes a ton of sense. There is a huge gray area though.
The break in the cycle should simply be that less people own our breed.
But we cannot affect that so we do the best we can with the fallout.
You don't need to tell me there aren't enough good homes for the good dogs. And sadly, the real bad seeds, shouldn't be on this earth to pose such threats. Neither should the BYB's making money.

[ZB Realzibozinovin]

a) not house broken
b) constant barker
c) jumps on everyone
d) chewer of everything
e) resource guarder
f) fear biter
g) over reactive
h) outright aggressive
i) dog aggressive
j) bite history

I guess I am one of the old balls then. I will take a problem dog over a nice dog any day. I’ve done it many times and probably will continue to do so. Some dogs I believe need a chance in life. Notice I say SOME! My dogs came to me with several of the above problems. The ones that have minor problems like barking, jumping, not house broken, and chewers, I will work with them and then adopt them out to families. The ones that had these minor issues are still with their families.
The ones that came to me with severe “E-J” problems I have kept for my own pets. I own German Shepherds, pit bulls, and Rottweilers. I attributed most of the problems to previous owners lack of training or caring for the dogs. The dogs that I kept for my own, I would not trade them for anything. I give them small jobs to do like pulling little wagons loaded with dirt or wood or something, pulling ropes to bring down small trees, or when I need a hole dug, one of my biggest diggers will gladly dig it on command. I just come up with different things on the spur of the moment to keep them occupied. Usually an occupied dog doesn’t have time to get into trouble.
To tell you the truth, I don’t think I would know what to do with a so called “nice dog.”

[debbiej]

very interesting thread. I adopted Boris out of a shelter. I had intentions of being a sort of rescue to him. The shelter told me he was a very sweet dog, just strong and totally untrained. he had been returned 3 times. I told them I would adopt him and try to train him, but wouldn't return him. I decided I'd either train him and find him a good home, or take him to the vet to be lovingly pts. the nearest rescue was in Taos, 6 hrs north of me. I spoke to the woman who runs the rescue and she agreed to mentor me by phone. this forum, the advice both given and archived, was invaluable.

He was leashed, crated or kenneled for the first month or so. I introduced every single new experience under controlled circumstances. no kids in my house, only husband to educate. He proved himself to be easy to housebreak, solid temperament, good nerve and desiring to please. He did have some pretty serious food/bone guarding issues, but I don't give him bones and the food guarding has stopped.

His hardest bad habit to break, in fact we are still working on it, is dog social skills. Although he loves people, he probably will never be easy to take out in public where there are other dogs. At home, he is the sweetest, happiest, most willing to please dog I've ever had.

What I can add to this thread is this: given his strength and size, if he had an ounce of instability of temperament, he would have been put to sleep. He is now a permanant member of our family.

[debbiej]

I also think something to be considered is what about a good dog with bad owners. a dog that hasen't been properly trained, plain and simple. that is the dog that evaluation and rescue really saves.

[old girl]

Its funny how some folks will look at a dog and say this dog is a problem. Other than extreme aggression to people, I will attempt to work with any dog.
Case in point would be Chewie our 4 yr old rottie. He had the most loving eyes at the shelter. They told me he needed some training but had no other problems. Well, there was one or two. After about a month he started charging at people on the street. More than a little frightening. It was always at the same type of people, young males. He had been abused as a pup and as a result of abuse and neglect he had lost a leg.
It was months of hard work with him, of never letting down our guard, of constant training and managing him. I won't lie, I thought about putting him down more than once because as I said before, I will not work with extreme people aggression. the risks are too high. But the reality is all he needed was some leadership and guidance.
My point is this; another home would have returned him to the shelter. Another home may not have taken the time and energy to work with him and would have missed the opportunity to have NOW a wonderful dog.
Far too often we give up before we get to see the miracle happen. Would I take on another problem dog. Other than extreme aggression towards people, yes, I would. And yes I have

[hmeadq]

a) not house broken
b) constant barker
c) jumps on everyone
d) chewer of everything
e) resource guarder
f) fear biter
g) over reactive
h) outright aggressive
i) dog aggressive
j) bite history

Our Doc (who was 4 months at the time) was sure a, c, and d when we got him. He also had hints of b and g. G only when people touched his feet and when he got excited because people were paying attention to him.

A was corrected by consistant methods and not letting him near concrete floors, which he thought were the correct place to go. B and C were corrected by training. G was corrected by daily touching his feet when he was relaxed and trusting, and by teaching him to "calm."

D is still a problem. He is getting better, and has learned that toys are the proper chewies, but occassionally a shoe gets destoryed or a new hole appears in the bedspread.

The key though is that he was still a puppy and not totally imprinted yet. In an adult dog I'd take C and maybe B, but that's it. I rescued feral kittens once at 6 weeks, right at the end of their imprinting period. One came around and became a great house cat. The other has been on anti anxiety meds more then once and still runs and hides when any one comes to the house. I spent a month holding them and petting them for 2-3 hours a day, and the one still never came around.

If the shelters never put to sleep type k dogs then maybe it would be diffrent but that is not the case. So with the exception of C I'd rather rescue the dog who can his life more...

[2rotties2luv]

I'm another one who adopted a rottie from a small rescue organization that either misrepresented or misunderstood a dog with problems.

After Sierra died in 2003, I was looking to adopt an adult, female rottie. I looked in petfinder, and I checked the local animal shelter and local rescue organizations. It became apparent that all of the dogs I inquired about were given up because of one problem or another. The people I spoke to at these organizations really tried to make me feel guilty for not wanting to adopt a "project" dog, because I am an experienced rottie owner.

The dog I finally adopted, Maddy, came from a small upstate rottie rescue run by a person who claimed to be a behaviorist. So I believed her evaluation of Maddy as friendly and submissive. The good news is that she got along great with Jazz and they developed a terrific relationship. The bad news is that it turned out that her submissiveness was a symptom of a fearful temperment. While she wasn't fearful of things like loud noises or trucks or thunderstorms, she was overcome with anxiety in new situations with strange people. Her submissiveness was her way of trying to diffuse the situation by pretending to be non-threatening.

However, she respected me and I took her through several sessions of obedience training and sh did quite well. As she became more confident, she also started snapping at people when they invaded her space. She never snapped at me, I think because she trusted me.

Long story short, after spending quite a few hours reading in the archives at RDN, I decided she could be managed. She was quite happy and relaxed to stay at home and play with Jazz, also OK with trips to the vet and loved to go to the boarding kennel. So her contact with the outside world and other people was limited and she lived a good life until she died of cancer 2 years later.

I keep reading in posts at RDN that there are tons of "great" dogs, rotties or other breeds, waiting to be adopted. That was not my experience with adopting a dog. My experience was that the dogs in the shelters and rescues were mainly given up due to problems - the "great" dogs with out issues that just want a forever home are really hard to find - maybe next to nonexistant.

I would love to adopt another adult female rottie, but after my last experience, I feel that finding one with a stable temperment, good nerves and without behavior isuues are pretty much nil.

[damp]

No problem dogs in my house!
I am not saying, that problems can’t be fixed, but only talking about taking a problem dog (as described in this thread) into my house.
Too many, (even so called small) problems are due to a flow in temperament, that I don’t like or lack of socializing, poor upbringing or a bad/inexperienced owner. Way to often, it’s a combination of all.
Of course, a not house broken dog can learn where to go, but if a dog is not house broken, it tells me, it probably also miss more serious things in it’s upbringing that’s not as fixable but only can be “covered” with lot of training.

I take responsibility for my own dog. If I did a bad buy, it’s my responsibility! If I did badly in raising and training my dog, it’s my responsibility! It’s my damn duty to put the dog down and not pass the problem on to the next and next owner, if it’s a danger to my family and/or my society, just as if that dog lives a life in fear, anxiety and stress (or any kind of pain for that matter)
I intent to clean up after my self, if I ever get a problem and I have no intentions of or patience to doing other people “dirty laundry”!
I am not a "sadistic murder", but I would rather be called dog killer (again ) than read posts about how sweet and how big a heart I have, for saving dogs that have no place on this earth!

I will continue to use my energy on mental sound dogs and train them to be good representatives for the canines in generality and the Rottweilers in particular and to help out owners before problems arise!

[old girl]

Originally Posted by damp

I am not a "sadistic murder", but I would rather be called dog killer (again ) than read posts about how sweet and how big a heart I have, for saving dogs that have no place on this earth!

I will continue to use my energy on mental sound dogs and train them to be good representatives for the canines in generality and the Rottweilers in particular and to help out owners before problems arise!

We all have the right to do what we see fit. My concern is who is to decided which dogs have a place on this earth. Its great that owners take full responsibilty for their own actions, but for those that dont, why is it the dog always pays the price? What looks like a problem dog now can be a solid companion with training and effort. Why should those dogs lose because some idiot owner didn't take the time to work with them?
Can you tell I am involved in resuce

[damp]

I am the one and only one to decide if my dog has a worthy life or is worthy to keep alive!!!
It’s my name out on the front door, it’s me paying his food, vet bill etc.etc. and it’s also me paying the price/cost for the euthanasia and relieving the dog from it’s pain, when that time comes!!! I don’t see what price the dog pays at all!

Originally Posted by old girl

Can you tell I am involved in resuce

Yes I can... Just as a side note…are you vegetarian too or do animals "pay the price" for your dinner to night???