Question about neuturing & size

[VANCOUVERISLANDROT]

I took Oscar to the vet last week for his 2nd shots and had a long discussion with the Dr. about the Rotti breed (pros/cons, things to watch out for etc). During our conversation he inquired on whether we were going to fix Oscar or not. I told him that I "assumed" we were going to as we had absolutely no plans of breeding him. He was obviously an advocate for fixing but he went on to tell me that Rotti males do tend to get wider and more stout if they aren't fixed and tend to be more lanky and not as wide through the hips if they're fixed.

I've never heard this but if I really compare to Rotti's that I know, it seems to somewhat make sense. Our last Rotti wasn't fixed as my dh did have plans on studding him because of his amazing german pedigree, great hips/health etc and because he was just gorgeous. Unfortunately he died after a car crash at the age of 3 so that never happened. He was very wide in the hips and extremely toned and muscular. My friend also owns a Rotti that she didn't fix until 5 yo (they were also going to stud and never did) and he's very broad as well.

So we're now contemplating not bothering to neuter him as we want him to grow to his full size/girth etc. If we were talking about a female, well she'd be fixed for sure but is there any harm in not fixing our male? What about waiting until he's older?

Has anyone ever heard of this even being an issue?

The vet also suggested fixing him at 4 m/o! Things have apparently changed since I last fixed a pup that's for sure. I don't ever remember doing it that early??

Thanks!
Julie

[Brooke&Ryan]

This issue was discussed at length in this thread....

http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/sho...ghlight=German

[VANCOUVERISLANDROT]

BOY! Did they ever discuss in on that thread. Couldn't really find anything pertaining to neutering affecting their growth size though?!

[BostonRott]

Yes, neutering will affect growth b/c testosterone is responsible for timing of growth plate closure. Early neutering causes the bones to grow for longer, generating a taller, weedier dog. Testosterone also controls the formation of secondary sex characteristics (broad heat, deep chest, etc). this is ALSO why the Purdue study shows that males neutered early are far more prone to osteosarcoma (bone cancer).

My recommendation to my male puppy owners is to not neuter before 18mos, as long as they're not having any serious behavioural problems.

[VANCOUVERISLANDROT]

Thanks alot BostonRot! I trust what my vet says but because I'd never heard about this I just wanted a 2nd opinion. DH and I discussed it again last night and have decided not to neuter Oscar. We may re-visit it when he's older (4-5 y/o) but only if we deem it necessary. My dh never had any behaviorial reprecussions from not fixing his last male Rotti.

Thanks again, appreciate your response/ insight.

Julie

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by VANCOUVERISLANDROT

Thanks alot BostonRot! I trust what my vet says but because I'd never heard about this I just wanted a 2nd opinion. DH and I discussed it again last night and have decided not to neuter Oscar. We may re-visit it when he's older (4-5 y/o) but only if we deem it necessary. My dh never had any behaviorial reprecussions from not fixing his last male Rotti.

Thanks again, appreciate your response/ insight.

Julie

You may want to rethink the 4-5 years....because by that age many intact male dogs often start having health problems. Testicular cancer as well as prostate problems as well as perianal tumors.

Most dogs do the majority of their growth by the time they are 12 months old. If they are neutered at that age or later...they will still get the nice head and body if genetics dictates.
If I remember correctly your pup comes from a BYB, and he may never fill in properly or have the nice head and muscular body.
Many intact, mature Rotts come into rescue and have very poor conformation...just lousy breeding and genetics.

If you are going to be a responsible dog owner....and not allow any "accidental" breedings to happen....and can put up with marking and other hormone driven behaviours...then wait till your pup is mature.

Gina

[VANCOUVERISLANDROT]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

You may want to rethink the 4-5 years....because by that age many intact male dogs often start having health problems. Testicular cancer as well as prostate problems as well as perianal tumors.

Most dogs do the majority of their growth by the time they are 12 months old. If they are neutered at that age or later...they will still get the nice head and body if genetics dictates.
If I remember correctly your pup comes from a BYB, and he may never fill in properly or have the nice head and muscular body.
Many intact, mature Rotts come into rescue and have very poor conformation...just lousy breeding and genetics.

If you are going to be a responsible dog owner....and not allow any "accidental" breedings to happen....and can put up with marking and other hormone driven behaviours...then wait till your pup is mature.

Gina

I suppose you can say our dog came from a BYB, HOWEVER it was their one and only litter. That being said, I am not concerned whatsover in the looks and/or genetic disposition of our dog because I knew both parents and they were both very healthy, amazingly well tempered, good looking rotti's. They chose to breed their dogs because they were stellar and had such wonderful temperments etc that friends/family wanted their off spring.

As well, Oscar is only 11 w/o and has beautiful coloring and size etc. We constantly get remarks on how beautiful he is, his coloring...even our vet has commented on how he hasn't seen such a nice looking Rotti in ages. His coloring/markings are even better then our last "papered" Rotti that was from Germany with champion bloodlines out the wazoo. I don't like that you're insinuating that because I purchased Oscar from a private breeder he's somehow inferior. He's certainly not a rescue dog where you have no idea what the parents were like etc.

As for any "accidental" breedings happening..I'm not really sure how that would happen. Our dog is indoors when not supervised, we have a 6'-7' high fenced yard and consider ourselves extremely responsible dog owners. As for marking....fixed males do the exact same thing?! and my dh didn't experience any hormonal issues with having his last male unfixed. However, should it become an issue when he's older then 18 mos, then we'd fix him. I'll have to discuss the risks of diseases on unfixed males with my vet and find out if they are "real" statistics or scare tactics.

[brunie's mom]

Sorry to have offended you.
Just want you to understand that many members here think they have the best looking, well tempered , nicely marked dog....but they have them neutered.
I know that you did post that you got your pup at 6 weeks of age...this tells me BYB, also any good breeder would have sold your pup on a spay/neuter contract unless you had planned to show. You would not be asking when to have the pup neutered it would be in a contract that you HAD to.

If the "breeders" of your pup had such fantastick dogs, they should have proven so by putting them in the show ring or proven them in a sport. Did they have their dog hips and elbows, hearts and eyes certified? What are their OFA numbers??

Nice marking and good temperments does not mean that dogs should be bred...and I am glad that they only produced one litter.

I board dogs for a living and only take spayed/neutered dogs....occassionally I board show dogs that are intact....none of the neutered dogs mark...only the intact.

Gina

[majicka]

Here's a personal statistic on an unfixed male..

My unneutered male (due to heart issues) started showing signs of BPH at the age of 6. By the time he was 7, I had to make the ONLY life saving choice I could..neuter him.

I have also heard stories of males going to great lengths to get a female in heat..I could bet you a 6ft high fence would be no feat for a determined male. Let me tell you..when I lived in an apartment complex my male chewed through a DOOR to try and get to the female across the way in heat. The dog would go absolutely insane if she was outside. I'm sure it was stressful for him, but it was also stressful for myself. I considered myself a responsible owner, which I was. It's not ME I had to worry about it was the owners of the females I worried about because they adored my boy and constantly asked me to allow him to mate w/ their girls. Um NO WAY! When I took him for walks I had to make sure that these 2 females were nowhere in sight.

My unneutered rottie was very tall lean and lanky as is my rottie who was neutered at 3 1/2 months. I don't agree w/ neutering at 3 1/2 months, it was the rescues choice. I have always been told 6 months to a year.

[RottyMom]

My two cents is that just because you have seen mother and father doesn't mean their not passing on bad hips hearts eyes etc. You really need to know the health and termperments throughout the breadth and depth of the relatives. A bad temperment or bad hips can come from a grandparent or beyond. Nobody is dissing your dog and nobody is saying your dog is inferior just that at some point the dog should be neutered. Those of us with rescue dogs take the chance especially with health but most rescues have the dogs fixed before they are adopted out. The health issues for older unneutered males are definately real.

[StephanieandToby]

Toby was almost 6 years old when I had him neutered due to prostate trouble. He was nicely proportioned with a beautiful head although obviously from a BYB. (splayed feet, roach back)

If I could go back in time and do it all over again I would have neutered him between 18 mos. and 2 years old. By that time he seemed fully developed.

The biggest benefit to having Toby neutered was actually the way OTHER dogs reacted to him. There was a lot less stress when meeting new dogs.
.............................................

That's interesting about dogs getting "weedy" looking when neutered too young. That explains all the strange looking Rottweilers around here! They are all legs and "hunched". Now I know why!

[VANCOUVERISLANDROT]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

Sorry to have offended you.
Just want you to understand that many members here think they have the best looking, well tempered , nicely marked dog....but they have them neutered.
I know that you did post that you got your pup at 6 weeks of age...this tells me BYB, also any good breeder would have sold your pup on a spay/neuter contract unless you had planned to show. You would not be asking when to have the pup neutered it would be in a contract that you HAD to.

If the "breeders" of your pup had such fantastick dogs, they should have proven so by putting them in the show ring or proven them in a sport. Did they have their dog hips and elbows, hearts and eyes certified? What are their OFA numbers??

Nice marking and good temperments does not mean that dogs should be bred...and I am glad that they only produced one litter.

I board dogs for a living and only take spayed/neutered dogs....occassionally I board show dogs that are intact....none of the neutered dogs mark...only the intact.

Gina

Not every person who owns a nice pb dog wants to PROVE IT in the show ring or in a sport?! That's a retarded statment. Some ppl DO breed their dogs to NOT make a big profit. I think it's crazy that ONLY experienced breeders should be ACCEPTABLE to breed their dogs. All of these pups went to friends and family members who KNEW the parents dogs and ADORED the parent dogs. They all just wanted an offspring of these 2 great dogs. No one's planning on showing them, sporting them, re-breeding them etc. Nor are we. We simply want our dog to look and grow to his full potential. I do NOT like the look of lanky/tall Rotti's at all nor do I like tails on them...it's all about personal choice. Therefore, when my vet explained to me that fixing our dog would result in a lanky dog, I was concerned.

I've had several PAPERED pb dogs of different breeds over the years and had them ALL as companion dogs only because I chose to. I had NO DESIRE to enter the (quite often) snobby, judgemental attitudes of the show dog world etc...thanks but no thanks. So many show dogs are just treated (and NO not all) like a possession and then discarded (adopted out) when the owner is done showing and/or not happy with their showing. I just find that to be so sad...talk about rescue dogs.

Not to say I might try out agility training with Oscar but it won't be for competition purposes. Wouldn't want my BYB MUTT fraternizing with the papered dogs. lmao!

As for hips etc both of the dogs were in great health and had no hip issues or signs of future problems etc. You take health chances with any dog, whether it's papered or not. We paid $1500 for pb gs dog from an VERY well respected, champion bloodline etc breeder, waited 3 years for him and he was put down at 9 for h/d. I've also had several family members purchase other breeds from reputable breeders and had major health issues as well. I've had mutts who were the healthiest dogs ever with zero problems. It's pretty much luck of the draw imo.

We took our pup at 6 w/o under special circumstances and were well aware that it wasn't the norm. And NO the big bad BYB's weren't THROWING them out the door. Oscar didn't have any issues adjusting and our vet didn't seem concerned whatsoever. That being said, would circumstances have allowed, we would've kept him w/ the breeder for another 2 weeks. Unfortunately that wasn't an option. We were actually in the midst of contacting local breeders and the Ontario breeder we'd bought Jake from and getting on a waiting list for a papered Rotti when we found out Oscar's litter was on it's way.

None of your neutured dogs ever mark?! Apparently EVERY male dog I've ever owned (all fixed by the way) must've been special cases or freaks of nature because they ALL marked. As well, every male I've EVER met for that matter marks. Not sure where that idea's coming from?! You couldn't walk 5 steps with our GS, he was the marking-machine!

[majicka]

My 14 month old has never marked in his life..My 2 1/2 year old coonie/shep mix had just recently started within the past few months. He doesn't lift, but he sure as heck marks!

Both dogs are neutered.

And I do not agree with you about your experienced breeders remark. Experienced Breeders are in it to better the breed. I don't think it's right just to breed a 'nice' dog who hasn't been proven and hasn't had the proper health clearances. Don't even get me started on this..you can go refer to another thread where I went on for a good chunk about my dog who was probably bred because he was 'big' and 'nice' and youll know why I don't think everyone and their brother should be breeding their 'nice' dog.

[RottyMom]

I don't think that proving your dog to be an exceptional speciman of the breed and I don't just mean conformation (ie working titles, after all the Rottweiler is a working breed) is "retarded" at all. Any responsible breeder would make sure these offspring would be spayed and neutered at some point...obviously they've left it up to the owners. What if other owners of these pups decide their dogs are so nice and their friends and family want one too...what's to stop them. It's the never ending cycle of BYB's. Most COE breeders are not making huge money on their dogs. It takes a whole lot of money to health test, train and trial.

[VANCOUVERISLANDROT]

Originally Posted by majicka

Here's a personal statistic on an unfixed male..

My unneutered male (due to heart issues) started showing signs of BPH at the age of 6. By the time he was 7, I had to make the ONLY life saving choice I could..neuter him.

I have also heard stories of males going to great lengths to get a female in heat..I could bet you a 6ft high fence would be no feat for a determined male. Let me tell you..when I lived in an apartment complex my male chewed through a DOOR to try and get to the female across the way in heat. The dog would go absolutely insane if she was outside. I'm sure it was stressful for him, but it was also stressful for myself. I considered myself a responsible owner, which I was. It's not ME I had to worry about it was the owners of the females I worried about because they adored my boy and constantly asked me to allow him to mate w/ their girls. Um NO WAY! When I took him for walks I had to make sure that these 2 females were nowhere in sight.

My unneutered rottie was very tall lean and lanky as is my rottie who was neutered at 3 1/2 months. I don't agree w/ neutering at 3 1/2 months, it was the rescues choice. I have always been told 6 months to a year.

We were also asked constantly to mate our last Rotti but declined as the bitches were of poor quality etc. We never did stud him because my dh was never happy with the bitches he saw. Unfortunately he died at 3 y/o...otherwise we would've taken one of his offspring had we found a nice bitch through a reputable breeder. I know that if a female's in heat a 6' fence won't keep him in but really...if someone's stupid enough to not fix their dog and mine (despite us doing everything in our power to prevent it) gets out and knocks their dog up...sucks to be them. Not like we'd have to pay puppy-support. haha! Seriously though, it would never, ever be my wish that Oscar takes any part in a mistake litter BUT I will be as diligent as humanly possible to avoid it like the plague. I'm also not going to shackle my dog. LOL! We live in a nice area of a small town full of grey-hairs where a Rotti is a "whoa! that's going to be a really big dog!" and they hear the word Rottweiler and quiver and/or cross the street. Only dogs you see around here are labs, poodles and other ankle biting breeds. In all honesty, there probably isn't an unfixed female anywhere in our neighborhood and if there is it's a breeder and from what I'm reading here they're so extremely responsible it shouldn't be a problem...right?!

I will check w/ my vet about fixing him after about 2 yrs for heatlh reasons...if he feels that's necessary.