Question about neuturing & size

[autumn]

As far as a fixed male marking......I have never had a male dog that did not mark, fixed or otherwise.

[BostonRott]

Originally Posted by VANCOUVERISLANDROT

Not to say I might try out agility training with Oscar but it won't be for competition purposes. Wouldn't want my BYB MUTT fraternizing with the papered dogs. lmao!

It wouldn't be your dog's heritage that ostracized you, it would be the chip on your shoulder. There are plenty of non-pedigreed dogs who compete and do well in agility (MACH2 Smooth is a rescue). Your insinuation otherwise is both ignorant and offensive.

[VANCOUVERISLANDROT]

Originally Posted by BostonRott

It wouldn't be your dog's heritage that ostracized you, it would be the chip on your shoulder. There are plenty of non-pedigreed dogs who compete and do well in agility (MACH2 Smooth is a rescue). Your insinuation otherwise is both ignorant and offensive.

I honestly don't have a chip on my shoulder about the pedigree of a dog, it was a rude comment and I apologize if I offended you. It's easy to get defensive on this forum at times because some ppl find it necessary to CONSTANTLY judge ppl's situations and not simply address the question at hand. I asked a simple question and it went completley sideways. You were one of the only posters who actually answered my question without being sarcastic and/or rude.

Why is it so hard for some posters to offer their opinion and/or advice without putting a negative spin on it. I'm not just going to sit back and not respond and have my dog belittled because we don't know what his bloodline is so he's probably going to be lanky when you've never even seen my pup?! I already stated a trillion times that we had no intentions of breeding him. We're not IGNORANT.

It IS possible to get a nice pb dog without papers. He didn't come from a puppy mill or chronic byb.

[dmoniz]

I have a 1 year old dog from unknown background. He was adopted when he was 7 weeks old. I have not yet neutered him because I want what is best for him. I want him to fully develop and lower his chances of bone cancer. He is a beautiful dog that fully represents the breed. I have been told that if he was papered he would be winning in the conformation ring. I do feel bad that he doesn't get to compete on the same playing field as papered rotts, but that said he is still unpapered and should not be bred. There are plenty of COE breeders out there to fulfill the need of rotts. Too many are still found in the shelters and rescues, the day that it is hard to find a rott to adopt will be a good day. After saying all this, my dog will be neutered when he is 2 years old. He will be mostly grown and he definetly doesn't need his balls for anything so they might as well be gone. Besides then he can compete in everything but conformation and he'll do a good job of it too.

[majicka]

Plus the bonus of neutering him Dmoniz is that you can get his ILP and compete if you chose to!

oh wait you said that..neverthemind...

[BostonRott]

Here is the study info, if you want it for your vet:

Influence of Gender and timing of Gonadectomy on risk for appendicular bone sarcoma in Rottweilers

Cooley DM, Beranek B, Glickman LT, Waters DJ.
Departments of Veterinary Clinical Sciences and Veterinary Pathobiology Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN 47907

Background: The role of sex hormones in bone sarcomagenesis has not been extensively studied. In a previous study using the Veterinary Medical Database (VMDB), Ru et al. (Vet J 1998:156 ??-39) found a significantly increased risk for osteosarcoma in castrated males and spayed females compared with sexually intact dogs. However, this VMDB-based study could not evaluate whether age at neutering significantly influenced osteosarcoma risk. Purpose: To determine if gender or lifetime duration of gonadal exposure influences the risk for appendicular bone sarcoma in Rottweilers. Methods: Data were obtained from owners of 746 purebred Rottweilers as part of a nationwide, population based study. Each dog owner completed a questionnaire regarding gender neuter status, age at spay or castration, bone tumor occurence, age at diagnosis, current vital status and age of death. The incidence of appendicular bone sarcoma per 1000 dog years at risk was determined for intact males, castrated males, intact females, and spayed females. The relative risk (RR) and 95% confidence limit of appendicular bone sarcoma was calculated by dividing the incidence rate for each gender-neuter category by the incidence rate for intact males (reference category; rr=1.0). For males and females, the influence of lifetime exposure to gonadal hormones on bone sarcoma was determined by comparison of the incidence of four subgroups stratified by age at neutering. Results: Appendicular bone sarcoma affected 111 of 746 (14.9%) Rottweilers. The RR for bone sarcoma was 1.64 for castrated males, 1.36 for spayed females and 1.04 for intact females. Females spayed at <1 year of age had a significantly increased risk for appendicular bone sarcoma compared with intact females (RR=2.21). Similarly, males castrated at <1 year of age had a significantly increased risk for bone sarcoma compared with intact males (RR=3.12%) Conclusions: In this population-based study, Rottweilers that underwent gonadectomy at <1 year of age had a significantly increased risk for bone sarcoma. These observations may be explained by either a direct effect of sex hormones on skeletal homeostasis or by indirect effects on body conformation or physical activity. Alternately, confounding factors unique to dogs that undergo early spay or castration may account for this association.

[rutylr]

I will all still have every puppy I sell neutered/ spayed before 6 months of age.
It should not matter if the dog is thinner looking then a dog who is not.It is just a pet.I would rather they be fixed then worry if the people who own the animal are watching them close enough.I don't want one of my puppies doing an opps.
Donna

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by BostonRott

Here is the study info, if you want it for your vet:

Influence of Gender and timing of Gonadectomy on risk for appendicular bone sarcoma in Rottweilers

Cooley DM, Beranek B, Glickman LT, Waters DJ.
Departments of Veterinary Clinical Sciences and Veterinary Pathobiology Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN 47907

Background: The role of sex hormones in bone sarcomagenesis has not been extensively studied. In a previous study using the Veterinary Medical Database (VMDB), Ru et al. (Vet J 1998:156 ??-39) found a significantly increased risk for osteosarcoma in castrated males and spayed females compared with sexually intact dogs. However, this VMDB-based study could not evaluate whether age at neutering significantly influenced osteosarcoma risk. Purpose: To determine if gender or lifetime duration of gonadal exposure influences the risk for appendicular bone sarcoma in Rottweilers. Methods: Data were obtained from owners of 746 purebred Rottweilers as part of a nationwide, population based study. Each dog owner completed a questionnaire regarding gender neuter status, age at spay or castration, bone tumor occurence, age at diagnosis, current vital status and age of death. The incidence of appendicular bone sarcoma per 1000 dog years at risk was determined for intact males, castrated males, intact females, and spayed females. The relative risk (RR) and 95% confidence limit of appendicular bone sarcoma was calculated by dividing the incidence rate for each gender-neuter category by the incidence rate for intact males (reference category; rr=1.0). For males and females, the influence of lifetime exposure to gonadal hormones on bone sarcoma was determined by comparison of the incidence of four subgroups stratified by age at neutering. Results: Appendicular bone sarcoma affected 111 of 746 (14.9%) Rottweilers. The RR for bone sarcoma was 1.64 for castrated males, 1.36 for spayed females and 1.04 for intact females. Females spayed at <1 year of age had a significantly increased risk for appendicular bone sarcoma compared with intact females (RR=2.21). Similarly, males castrated at <1 year of age had a significantly increased risk for bone sarcoma compared with intact males (RR=3.12%) Conclusions: In this population-based study, Rottweilers that underwent gonadectomy at <1 year of age had a significantly increased risk for bone sarcoma. These observations may be explained by either a direct effect of sex hormones on skeletal homeostasis or by indirect effects on body conformation or physical activity. Alternately, confounding factors unique to dogs that undergo early spay or castration may account for this association.

I have a much longer version of this study somewhere...and it does mention that dogs spayed/neutered BEFORE the age of 12 months..have a increased chance of osteo...the increase is not all that much.
We also have many forum members here that have neutered/spayed their dogs at a much later age ( because the dog's breeding career was over) and they died of either bone cancer or some other cancer.

I'm really not all that sure that this study is the be all and end all and the answer to our prayers. I do agree that male dogs should not neutered at a young age. But I also know of a study done that when females are allowed to have even one heat their chances of mammary cancer goes way up. Seems if you wait to spay they may get cancer and if you spay early..they get cancer...

Gina

[RottieMom51503]

Julie,

http://www.petfinder.com/pet.cgi?act...=25&tmpl=&stat=

First of all please read about Missy. She sure is pretty, nice big head. She was bred because of her looks. I hope none of your dogs sibling wind up like Missy. I hope I can help you undertand a little more about what Gina was trying to get across to you. You may write this thread, however you will not be the only one to ever read it. Others will read this thread and breeding pet dogs isn't a good idea. If Missy had a caring breeder she would be with them and not at a pound. The person that bred this dog could careless about the kind of home she got, all they cared about was the money. While his bank account expanded Missy became a money making machine for people that didn't give a darn about her. I doubt Missy grew up playing ball or going for car rides. I doubt she saw a Vet very often. I doubt she went for walks or went to obedience school. I doubt she ever looked in someone eyes and staring back at her was someone whom really cared and adored everything about her. People here are trying to avoid future Missy's. I'm sorry that you feel offended but we take offense to people whom let their dogs wind up like Missy. I'm not saying your dog will wind up like Missy. You are showing that by being here and asking questions but please listen to everyone answers.

You are right not everyone wants to put their dog in the show ring. I have no desire to show either of my dogs. However those that don't have no business breeding. When two dogs get together and puppies are born and sold you have affected those puppy parents lives. Why put someone through something you can help. A friend of mine had an accidental possible breeding and got an abortion and a spay right away.

Second of all I watched my childhood dog die at the age of 6, yes 6 years old because of testicular cancer. It's not a joke by a long shot. People aren't trying scare tactics here. I watched my parents shell out over a thousand dollars in a weeks time to try different treatments including a blood transfusion to try and save the dog. When the doctor told us to say our good buys to him my father carried the dog out in the backyard of the vet's office. He was so weak he couldn't stand up. This was a dog that had a nose like a bloodhound. My mother used him as a narcotics detection dog. He was in agility and several other things. This was a very strong dog and he was only 6 and he died because he wasn't fixed.

Third of all your dog busting out of your property and getting to a female dog in heat is your problem. Like it or not. My neighbor just sued another neighbor for half of his Vet bill to have his thirteen month old dog spayed and an abortion.

Try not to take so much offense. People here are very concerned about the Rottweilers name. They are trying to save the breed before we have bans like the pit bull has. We are all currently planning Rottstocks which are benefits for homeless Rottweilers and there would be no need for this if only responsible owners and breeders were involved with the Rottweilers. We are going to go to these benefits and give our money that we worked hard for because other people decided to toss their dog aside, abused it, etc.

Nobody is saying you are not a responsible owner but their are alot of people that aren't. Nobody is saying you don't have a good looking dog. My dogs couldn't hold a candle to a Rottweiler in the conformation ring. There's nothing wrong with that. They aren't show dogs and so they aren't going to be in the same class as those dogs and aren't going to meet the Rottweilers standards. I knew that when I brought them home. Daphne came from a pretty good breeder but Bear is a BYB dog. However I have had a ton of offers to breed Bear just because he is tall and has a big head. I have never had anyone who has asked me to breed him ask about his health, temperment, bloodline, etc. All they ask is how old is he, how much does he weight and what do I charge for a stud fee. Bear is neutered and was neutered young as I had a female whom was only 7 months older than him and I didn't want to take any chances so they were both fixed. I think in everyone's own way they are trying to help you understand the pros and cons of early and late neutering and nobody is meaning to offend you.

[VANCOUVERISLANDROT]

Originally Posted by RottieMom51503

Julie,

http://www.petfinder.com/pet.cgi?act...=25&tmpl=&stat=

First of all please read about Missy. She sure is pretty, nice big head. She was bred because of her looks. I hope none of your dogs sibling wind up like Missy. I hope I can help you undertand a little more about what Gina was trying to get across to you. You may write this thread, however you will not be the only one to ever read it. Others will read this thread and breeding pet dogs isn't a good idea. If Missy had a caring breeder she would be with them and not at a pound. The person that bred this dog could careless about the kind of home she got, all they cared about was the money. While his bank account expanded Missy became a money making machine for people that didn't give a darn about her. I doubt Missy grew up playing ball or going for car rides. I doubt she saw a Vet very often. I doubt she went for walks or went to obedience school. I doubt she ever looked in someone eyes and staring back at her was someone whom really cared and adored everything about her. People here are trying to avoid future Missy's. I'm sorry that you feel offended but we take offense to people whom let their dogs wind up like Missy. I'm not saying your dog will wind up like Missy. You are showing that by being here and asking questions but please listen to everyone answers.

No my dog certainly wouldn't end up like Missy because we are responsible pet owners. People purchase dogs from breeders and treat them badly. Hell, I know ppl who adopt dogs from the SPCA and treat them like crap. Doesn't matter where or who a dog comes from...it's all about WHO owns them. People lie on breeders and SPCA questionaires (i.e. will the dog be inside or out etc) to get the dogs they want. Just because we purchased Oscar from a private breeder (1x I might add again) doesn't automatically mean he's going to be a puppy studding machine. As for the other pups in the litter, I can't speak for their owners. I honestly hope that they all don't breed but it's out of my hands and WE would not pass on Oscar's genes not knowing what his full background is. Maybe breeders aren't as strict out here but I know several friends who bought papered rotti's from breeders and never fixed them...including our last male?

You are right not everyone wants to put their dog in the show ring. I have no desire to show either of my dogs. However those that don't have no business breeding. When two dogs get together and puppies are born and sold you have affected those puppy parents lives. Why put someone through something you can help. A friend of mine had an accidental possible breeding and got an abortion and a spay right away.

Again, I have no intentions of breeding Oscar whatsoever. We are simply not going to fix him until he's at a more mature age (age to be determined) because we would like him to grow/mature to his fullest potential.

Second of all I watched my childhood dog die at the age of 6, yes 6 years old because of testicular cancer. It's not a joke by a long shot. People aren't trying scare tactics here. I watched my parents shell out over a thousand dollars in a weeks time to try different treatments including a blood transfusion to try and save the dog. When the doctor told us to say our good buys to him my father carried the dog out in the backyard of the vet's office. He was so weak he couldn't stand up. This was a dog that had a nose like a bloodhound. My mother used him as a narcotics detection dog. He was in agility and several other things. This was a very strong dog and he was only 6 and he died because he wasn't fixed.

Health problems can happen to pb papered dogs regardless of pedigree. I've witnessed this first hand many times. Why did your parents not fix your dog, were they planning on breeding? Did he have any unwanted litters? Was it for the same "growth" purposes as us? Again...we most likely will fix Oscar at a later age once he's matured.

Third of all your dog busting out of your property and getting to a female dog in heat is your problem. Like it or not. My neighbor just sued another neighbor for half of his Vet bill to have his thirteen month old dog spayed and an abortion.

I live in Canada...people don't just sue people for stuff like that, it just doesn't happen here. As well, our last unfixed male lived in downtown Toronto and never escaped or ran rampant with hormones because we are responsible pet owners. We live in a rural town now and I'm honestly not concerned whatsoever. The only people in this area that would have unfixed females would be breeders and/or show dogs. Those people go to great lengths to protect their females. We live in a nice area of town where ppl just don't let their dogs lose etc. He's never unsupervised when outside and he's an indoor dog. My friend also has a 5 y/o Rotti that she just fixed recently as they were planning on studding him but never did. He was in their backyard for 5 years in a way busier/larger city then us and he never went MIA over the fence or while out lose on beach walks etc. It was never even an issue for them nor was it for us with our last Rotti.

Try not to take so much offense. People here are very concerned about the Rottweilers name. They are trying to save the breed before we have bans like the pit bull has. We are all currently planning Rottstocks which are benefits for homeless Rottweilers and there would be no need for this if only responsible owners and breeders were involved with the Rottweilers. We are going to go to these benefits and give our money that we worked hard for because other people decided to toss their dog aside, abused it, etc.

I completely understand that and it also saddens me that they get a bad name along with PB's (whom are amoungst some of the gentlest dogs I've ever known). We just don't have the same Rotti overpopulation problem out here in B.C. I guess because I rarely see Rotti's at the SPCA. And they're certainly not being killed off because the Canadian SPCA does NOT euthanize any animal unless medically required. Alot of ppl buy rotti's for the wrong reasons, it's sad. Unfortunately you will never be able to control who/what breeds their dogs, regardless of breed. It just won't happen. There will always be irresponsible dog owners, badly treated dogs etc. It's unfortunate and extremely sad but true. We had all intentions of buying another Rotti from a breeder before Oscar. When we found out our friends were having pups and we saw them, we decided to give Oscar a home instead. It's not like we supported a BYB or puppy mill. Their dogs won't be bred again. Dogs purchased from breeders can go to bad homes as well. I don't care how strict and thorough a breeder is in picking homes....there will always be one jerk who slips through. Oscar won't be contributing to this poor-population problem, I leave that up to the experienced breeders.

Nobody is saying you are not a responsible owner but their are alot of people that aren't. Nobody is saying you don't have a good looking dog. My dogs couldn't hold a candle to a Rottweiler in the conformation ring. There's nothing wrong with that. They aren't show dogs and so they aren't going to be in the same class as those dogs and aren't going to meet the Rottweilers standards. I knew that when I brought them home. Daphne came from a pretty good breeder but Bear is a BYB dog. However I have had a ton of offers to breed Bear just because he is tall and has a big head. I have never had anyone who has asked me to breed him ask about his health, temperment, bloodline, etc. All they ask is how old is he, how much does he weight and what do I charge for a stud fee. Bear is neutered and was neutered young as I had a female whom was only 7 months older than him and I didn't want to take any chances so they were both fixed. I think in everyone's own way they are trying to help you understand the pros and cons of early and late neutering and nobody is meaning to offend you.

And I totally appreciate that everyone's offering their opinion, that's why I asked. I just find it offensive when ppl choose to pass judgement in lieu of offering advice. From the advice we've received from some of these replies we've actually changed our mind from 'never neutering' to possibly not neuturing until a later age because of the health concerns voiced on this thread. I'm going to discuss the "later age" pros/cons with my vet on Oscar's next visit. Regardless that Oscar will never be a show dog etc, I still want him to look his best and we personally prefer the bigger chest and hind quarters etc. He will never be bred nor will an accidental litter occur....though he keeps trying to mount the cat! haha!

Thank you for your advice, I do appreciate it.

Julie

[RottyMom]

Once again I hate to disagree with you but the shelters and SPCA's here in BC are full of Rotti's...that's where I got my two...and yes your friends are BYB's plain and simple. It doesn't matter how many litters they have one or twenty. If all of the friends and family that took pups from them took a dog from a shelter...well you see where I'm going with this.

[RottieMom51503]

I didn't see where anyone said anything offensive and if you are going to argue with everything, everyone says then why post any questions here because you know everything already. People that have discussed your question have male dogs and we have all had to get our dogs fixed so we aren't completely stupid about the subject.

[VANCOUVERISLANDROT]

I'm not even going to bother directly replying to the last 2 posts. It's an argument that will go on forever as you both have your opinions and I obviously have mine. I asked a simple question and YES I listened to the advice given but I'm not going to just "take" judgemental accusations. Did you not read that we have in fact changed our mind from never fixing to fixing at a later age BECAUSE of the helpful advice we received from this thread?! Selective reading.

Thanks to THOSE who actually offered advice and didn't pass judgement on my pups origin NOR gave me the BYB lecture. I appreciated the advice I did receive.

This thread is DONE imo.

Julie