Question re: Dog Play in "Culture Clash"

[Brooke&Ryan]

I'm on a dog book kick right now & am re-reading "Culture Clash". On pg. 22-23 she talks about dog play & I have a question about some terminology that I don't understand.

There is one other dimension worth discussing before delving into the predatory sequence and that's the rehearsal of some of these behaviors during play---the sparring and jaw-wrestling dogs engage in endlessly with other dogs if given the chance. One function of this rough play is to keep the skills for killing polished. This behavior is normal, healthy, and adaptive, with the important fringe benefits of firstly, minimizing the chances of a regular player ever developing a hard mouth and secondly, of his ever getting into serious dog fights.

What does she mean by that statement in bold? I just haven't ever heard the term "hard mouth" before....

Thanks!

Brooke

[LynnS]

She means biting hard unintentionally. I don't agree that a dog needs to continually play with other dogs in order to retain this knowledge...

[Bucky's Mom]

Hunting breeds are referred to as having "soft mouths" because they can retrieve and carry the duck (or whatever) back to the hunter without mangling it

So the statement refers to a dog lerning how to "bite" without clamping down.

I could just see Bucky retrieving a duck - there MIGHT be a feather left when he returned

[BostonRott]

Rottweilers are a naturally hard mouthed breed. As Lisa said, the hunting breeds must retreive the fowl un-mangled (in trials), and this is referred to as having a soft mouth......and is very much genetic in how it passes along, like drives in Rottweilers.

I think most working breeds are wired to be hard mouthed. What they're talking about is teaching the dog to moderate it's jaw pressure.

[hcelsa]

Hard mouthed meaning bite down hard when using mouth to carry, grab etc vs. soft mouthed meaning using the least amount of pressure necessary to pick-up, and carry something.

Golden folks really frown on hard-mouthed puppies, but contrary to some opinions they DO get them. It's interesting to see the way the other puppies respond to the hard-mouthed sibling...at least in my friends litters the hard-mouthed pup usually gravitates to the big dogs and people stronger as his/her siblings avoid the "meany" (if they're properly soft-mouthed they usually don't do a very good job of backing that pup off). Of course when socializing with her pups these are the ones I gravitate towards as they're usually more fun to play tug with, and hang off my pantlegs (just like little Rottweilers ). While not what is appropriate in their own breed...they're my kind of pups!

A harder mouth dog can be taught to be softer at least in some cases (though probably not as soft as those that start with the genetic programming to be soft). When my brothers taught Kyrie to retrieve their ducks they used a special duck shaped dummy that had a pretty hard surface and hard feet and head attached by rope so that if it was shaken it wouldn't feel nice. It was also bigger than the average duck so that made it harder to bite down on. She usually retrieves 30+ ducks a season and only rarely are there any tooth marks visible on any (unless the duck she retrieves is only winged and she has to chase it down...then it ends up chomped up to "make sure it's not going to get away").

[SonnyRott]

I've noticed this with my dog. Because he was socialized from puppyhood with other dogs (and he still plays with these same dogs today), they understand how to mouth and play with each other. Sometimes they look and sound like they are killing each other, but they are having fun. Flashing teeth and all...with much mouthing. But none of it hard.

It is very obvious when you run into a dog who is not dog savvy or just never played with other dogs....they tend to not understand doggy speak....and end up biting out of fear or acting out of fear for their own safety.

I know not everyone allows their dogs to play with other dogs but it was a choice I made early on since I knew we would be in many social situations.

[LynnS]

Originally Posted by SonnyRott

I've noticed this with my dog. Because he was socialized from puppyhood with other dogs (and he still plays with these same dogs today), they understand how to mouth and play with each other. Sometimes they look and sound like they are killing each other, but they are having fun. Flashing teeth and all...with much mouthing. But none of it hard.

It is very obvious when you run into a dog who is not dog savvy or just never played with other dogs....they tend to not understand doggy speak....and end up biting out of fear or acting out of fear for their own safety.

I know not everyone allows their dogs to play with other dogs but it was a choice I made early on since I knew we would be in many social situations.

Just to clarify - I totally agree with you SonnyRott and Bella was absolutely socialized as a puppy and still plays with with a dog once in a while. My point is that I do not think they forget how much jaw pressure to use if not continually playing with other dogs as the author suggests

[fbkeays]

Originally Posted by hcelsa

Hard mouthed meaning bite down hard when using mouth to carry, grab etc vs. soft mouthed meaning using the least amount of pressure necessary to pick-up, and carry something.

A harder mouth dog can be taught to be softer at least in some cases (though probably not as soft as those that start with the genetic programming to be soft).

I used to work with some avid hunters. They told me that how they taught a dog with a hard mouth to be softer was with a dead duck wrapped in barbed wire and make the dog hold and carry it around.

[hcelsa]

Originally Posted by fbkeays

I used to work with some avid hunters. They told me that how they taught a dog with a hard mouth to be softer was with a dead duck wrapped in barbed wire and make the dog hold and carry it around.

Oh, ughh...we know about that nasty method, and have some "friends" (said loosely) that use it or variations there of (and there are lots of additional "ways" to teach retrieving gently that my brothers wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole). I know Kyrie well enough to know that she's say "screw you" if made to carry around a duck that hurt her mouth.

[damp]

Originally Posted by LynnS

My point is that I do not think they forget how much jaw pressure to use if not continually playing with other dogs as the author suggests

I grow up with German wire-haired hunting dogs and all could retrieve with soft mouth (my father loved to let them retrieve eggs to demonstrate that) but it was NOT a pretty sight when the haulage contractor just walked in the stable and started to load the pigs before dad woke up from his nap…or a vagabond thought he could sleep on the hayloft.

Dogs with good temperament and right genes, socialization and training very well know where a soft and hard mouth is suitable!

[Brooke&Ryan]

Gotcha! Thanks for the explanation guys! I knew that I could count on you.

Now that you all have explained it, I have heard the terminology before...but it just didn't click when reading the text. Now it's all becoming clear.

Thanks again!

Brooke

[2rotties2luv]

Just one little funny story to add to the topic:

Many years ago when I was training my wiemaraner, Max, the trainer wanted to demonstrate to the class the difference between a "hard mouth" dog and a "soft mouth" dog. He took an egg and placed it in the middle of the floor and instructed me to tell Max to retrieve it. Max raced for the egg, and picked it up soooo carefully and brought it back to me where he outed it very gently into my hand. Then the trainer repeated the exercize with his doberman, who carefully picked up the egg, bit down, and then deposited a couple of pieces of eggshell in the trainer's hand!

[Judi W]

And I totally agree with Damp. I've had Rottweilers would could snatch a bird out of the air and when told to "out" that bird could fly off. Same dog would break a bite bar. The rather excellent "hunter" I have now will sometimes bring me intact and able to fly off birds and other times they are dead dead dead. My explanation for this is whether they put up a fight or not!!!! The ones who play possum seem to excape intact.

[Brooke&Ryan]

Originally Posted by Judi W

My explanation for this is whether they put up a fight or not!!!! The ones who play possum seem to excape intact.

Well that makes sense, Judi. It's not all that fun to toss & shake a bird that's staying still....