Question about head size?

[SOX_H8r]

My wife and I are going to take a look at 9 month old Paco von Herrschaft. Parents are:

Bundesjugendsieger '02
Österr.-Bundesjugendsieger '02
Frankensieger '03
ARV SERS '04
Canadian National Sieger '04
Kliff vom Schwaiger Rathaus
VPG/SchH3, IPO3, AD, BH, ZtP

x

Vamp vom Wolfert Turm
VPG1, BH, ZtP HD frei ED+

Critique: 4 month old, very well built, very good chest proportions, very good bone strength, strong paws, very nice head, good eye color, very well carried ears, scissors bite, excellent coat, markings of correct size and very good color, good movement, very good coming and going.

Critique: excellent in type for his age, attentive, very nice head, very dry, medium sized correct carried ears, dark brown eyes, good width muzzle, chest is very well built and tight, dark mouth pigmentation, excellent short coat, clearly defined brown markings, front and rear end very well angualted, excellent and powerful movement.

The owner did mention that he's a very solid dog, 85lb., but his head isn't large "yet".

Do you think he will grow into it, after all, he's only 9 months old?

And the owner doesn't have a health guarantee, it was never sent by the breeder. Should this be of concern?

Thanks

[Judi W]

Health guarantees are rarely transferable so even if the owner had one that would probably not transfer to you, but the fact that there never was one by the breeder would concern me in that it might very well speak to the expectations of the breeding. (there is ED+ on the bitch and what are the health clearances on the sire? With all the stuff listed for him wouldn't that information be expected to be included?)

The head may or may not come. They tend to grow last so it is not uncommon to find a <year old look like it is lacking in head size.

Why is the pup for sale? What expectations of it has the owner decided it will not be meeting? What are your expectations and goals for the pup? Much will depend upon your plans for him.

He is old enough that I would do a prelim before committing. It would be an excellent investment.

[SOX_H8r]

Kliff was imported from Germany at 2-1/2 yrs old
Whelped: May 8, 2001
Bred By: Xaver & Helene Meixner
Owned By: Aaron & Stephanie Tabor
HD-, ED+/-
Dogbase: HD 92 - ED 91 - KOP 115 - JOC 121 - KNO 117

The owner has to sell Paco due to a new housing situation. She did say that the breeder was to send the health guarantee, but she didn't follow up on it due to the crazyness caused by move.

The dog is currently being boarded at her vet's facilities, in fact, he wanted to take the dog and send him to family in Asia, but after checking into the freight, he decided against it. I spoke with the vet yesterday and was told he's a very healthy rottweiler. But I will go into more in greater detail when I speak with him in person tomorrow.

The dog is crate trained, has his CGC, started basic ob, is housebroken, is very social with children and other dogs. The only bad thing is he doesn't like his nails cut -- what else is new with a rottie, mine was a terror too.

I also spoke with another breeder who owns a littermate of Paco, and she says the dog is beautiful, has an excellent temperment and lots of drive.

As for what we want to do with Paco, if we decide to take him -- we'd like to show him and also work him in Schutzhund.

[Judi W]

well, do get prelims done. I believe that is basic for any older pup or uncertified adult being considered.

[BostonRott]

Kliff has some nice solid dogs behind him. Not the overdone stuff you see coming out of some kennels today, but dogs like Doc, Noris and Endy all had very good heads, and their muzzles were of appropriate length for working dogs.

Vamp is out of a Furst daughter bred to Akino.....both with gorgeous heads and propensity for throwing it. Furst is who is behind a lot of the Eastern bloc stuff (linebreeding on him), and you've seen those heads (not what I prefer, but seemingly in vogue).

What you need to find out is the maturity rate of the line (and that info, I can't offer you, not familiar enough). Heads will continue to broaden and fill for some time. Vikka's cheek bones "popped" at about 18mos (she's a Fax v Tengen dau). Banja is 23mos and has recently started to develop cheekbones (though not nearly as nice as her littersister Bea, but we could see that in the litter at 7wks also). Ban's head has also recently broadened.

Quite honestly (and I mean NO offense towards anyone's dogs by these comments, but I'm sure they'll not sit right with a few) there is a current trend towards VERY heavy boned dogs with overdone heads (wet, wrinkly stops, short muzzles, domey) who develop VERY fast. You see pictures of 9 and 12mos dogs who look like 3yr old males. It seems this is becoming "the norm" in some circles and is being used as a yardstick.

If that is what you want, buy it. If you have other ideas/plans, stick with them and don't be swayed by trends.

Paco's littermate looks very nice and the younger pictures of Paco also look nice.

I would agree with the prelims (and have them submitted to OFA....don't take a local vet's opinion of them, you don't know that vet from a hole in the wall), including the elbows. There seems to be a good line of elbows behind both parents. Vamp is ED+, Kliff is ED +/-, 2 of Vamp's littermates are ED-Frei and none of Kliff's are evaluated.....but hopefully the strong genetics will carry through. As much as certain crowds of people don't "believe" in elbows, if you are going to have a working dog, you MUST have a strong front (and that includes good length of forearm, solid elbows and well laid-back shoulders).

[SOX_H8r]

Damn, I got him! I loved his looks and temperment when I saw him, and I couldn't pass up on the price. Amazing pup.

Needs alot of work in obedience. My former dogs prongs aren't in the best shape so I'm getting him a new one tomorrow and "start the education". He's one strong dog, I forgot how stubborn young dogs are.

He's in the kennel now, whined and cried a bit, but I told my wife to ignore it and he settled down nicely.

I know he's going to be fine, have to tape his ear though.

AND HE'S GOT A TAIL!

[SABELLESMOM]

Originally Posted by SOX_H8r

Damn, I got him! I loved his looks and temperment when I saw him, and I couldn't pass up on the price. Amazing pup.
AND HE'S GOT A TAIL!

Fabulous! I am familiar with "Vamp". She is quite a stunning representation of the breed! Congratulations!! (Fuerst relative, here, as well) Good luck with Paco!

[SOX_H8r]

Thanks, he's very well behaved in the house, goes into the crate no problem, but needs a lot of work walking on the leash. He's a very good pup. The tail is growing on us!

After playing and walking for a few hours outside, he turns into a snoring machine! He was asleep at my feet and my wife and I couldn't hear the TV.