Questions possibly pregnant Rott

[targonrotts]

oh by the way, H litter means for her that is her 8th litter bred by her.
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jackie k.
ch.hailey,ax,axj,nap,cd,cgc,u-ag2,fdch
kelly,na,nap,cd,fdch

[Rotty4Me]

Originally Posted by Judi W

Maureen,
Many knowlegeable people prefer that any desexing take place after physical maturity. This makes a considerable difference regarding spay incontinence and is also discovered to be a possible influence on osteo and other skeletal provisions. The fact that this particular girl ended up in this unfortunate situation does not change the fact that later desexing has many advantages. She is simply being spayed sooner than planned.

I understand this, but do not agree with a pet dog being allowed to come into heat before neutering. Aside from the fact that the surgery itself is much more intense once a bitch has cycled, I would not want to take the gamble as a breeder placing a puppy in a pet home, that an accident might not occur. Accidents happen to even the most experienced & careful. Does the average pet owner know exactly what precautions should take place to ensure the bitch is not accidentally bred? I would never chance it. But if ever I breed, it will only be a litter or two & with the intention that only a select puppy or two from those breedings ever reproduce themselves. I believe that earlier spaying (8-12m) has helped prevent many an unwanted litter from occuring. I do not believe in neutering any younger than 6 months as I feel this may cause developmental problems. I'm sorry, I just find it too risky to allow a pet puppy to remain intact in a pet home. (and I am not blaming the pet owner in this particular case, but the breeder for allowing her to remain intact for so long. Luckily the owner, or caretaker of the bitch was made known an accident had occured. If it hadn't been made known, the bitch may have carried a litter to term of unwanted puppies, along with putting herself through an unnecessary ordeal).

Maureen

[Judi W]

This bitch is not having a litter.

[Rotty4Me]

Originally Posted by Judi W

This bitch is not having a litter.

I am SO confused! I know she's not having a litter, but I thought the reason behind her being spayed was because she might be pregnant since she was accidently in with an intact male at the kennel she was staying at? And that she might be pregnant at this point? Am I missing something? Help!

Maureen

[RottieMom51503]

Maureen,

Yes Holly was with a male accidently at a kennel she was staying at and there is the possiblity that she is pregnant but the issue will be resolved tomarrow.

I am not a breeder and can not speak for one but I voice my opioion on the matter. When I talked to the Breeder the other night she said she has had three problems with three girls that were fixed when they were six months old. One died from the Anesthetic and two that had developed bone cancer. She give all three people a new puppy. Her Vet suggested she revise her contract to spay when pups were older. Daphne was spayed at 9 months old. I didn't read much about spaying her when it came time which I should have. I grew up with male German Shepherds which were always nutered at 6 months old and never had a problem. According to Nick's Breeder Rottweilers run a higher risk of Bone Cancer than most other breeds when fixed young. Yes there are alot of young dogs even under the age of one having puppies because owners didn't watch and take proper precautions to ensure that didn't happen. However I really think the majority of those dogs having those puppies at a young age are the dogs bought from backyard breeders and are ignored by the family. I really think that if someone decided to buy a Rottweiler and takes the time to research breeders and the activities you want the dog for, take the dog for proper Vet care, Training and Nutrition and additionally pay 1800 for a dog (I only paid 600 for Daphne). On top of this you've got a breeder that checks up on you and wants to know what you have accomplished with your dog and if you haven't accomplished what you said you were going to do with the dog she wants to know why then I really think that lowers the chance a little bit. She wants to ensure her dogs Health. How would that look on her as a breeder if people that bought her puppies were all saying the puppy I bought from her has been diagnoised with Bone cancer and it might have been preventable if she had let me spay my girl a little bit later. People that don't care for their dogs definitely don't pay 1800 for dog nor do they want a breeder calling and checking up on them all the time. It's like having teenagers, healthwise you wouldn't go have the unterus removed from your 15 year old daughter because you were scared she would wind up pregnant you take precautions to ensure that doesn't happen the same with dogs. When Daphne came in heat and was only nine months old I had two intact males living with her and I knew nothing of the Heat cycle until Targonrotts explained it to me in this posts and Daphne never got pregnant. I think blaming the breeder is wrong in this situation it's stupid people that think "DOGS ARE JUST DOGS" that are the problem. The Breeder doesn't approve or encourage breeding unworthly dogs and she made that clear to me. She even offered to send me one of her Puppy information packets which I accepted. She doesn't have to take the time to put one of those together for me, Daphne isn't her puppy nor related to her line at all but she cares about Rottweilers and Thought their might be something in her packet that I didn't know. I'm not upset or anything but I think I read that you said that you weren't a breeder and what you would do if you were a breeder. You can't go on IFS because you aren't a breeder and haven't reared a litter so honestly you don't have clue as I don't. Just don't be so quick to judge this breeder when you don't know her.

[RottieMom51503]

Also Nick has a contract from the breeder to have her spayed but the contract states to do it at the age of 24 months.

[fbkeays]

Originally Posted by Rotty4Me

I understand this, but do not agree with a pet dog being allowed to come into heat before neutering. Aside from the fact that the surgery itself is much more intense once a bitch has cycled, I would not want to take the gamble as a breeder placing a puppy in a pet home, that an accident might not occur. Accidents happen to even the most experienced & careful. Does the average pet owner know exactly what precautions should take place to ensure the bitch is not accidentally bred? I would never chance it.

Well, what about a persons first show bitch???? What are the chances of an "accident" happening to that bitch? The bitch must remain intact to show. A good friend of mine has a veteran bitch, her first show bitch. She is just now thinking of getting her spayed. Before this bitch, she never did any sort of organized dog activity- not even obedience classes for her previous pet dogs. Guess what, the bitch has made it to age seven without even a close call!!!!!!! Amazing isn't it
Another friend of mine has her first intact bitch. She just went through her 3rd heat cycle. Guess what, she managed to make sure her intact male never did "the deed" for the 3rd straight time.
I am looking at getting my first show bitch this year. I have only had one bitch prior and she was spayed (not neutered, but spayed) at age 9 months. I never had to deal with a heat cycle. Guess what, I have an intact male at home too. So far the breeders I have talked to don't have a problem with me having an intact male and an intact bitch in the same house. When they asked what my plans are to keep them seperated during heat cycles, they are satified with my answers.
I have another friend that kept an intact bitch for five years, with an intact male of another breed. She bred the girl once to a very nice stud. She got more puppies then expected and then couldn't stand to part with the additional 4 puppies. Living out in the country, she had the room for them. Three intact bitches and two intact males on the property. Guess what, the puppy bitches are almost 5 years old not one has had an "accident".
It is just amazing how some people are able to control their dog's reproductive behavior without getting them fixed. My male is going on four years old. Not once has he bred without my permission. Even doing long sit and down stays next to bitches in standing heat (the above mentioned bitches plus others) has there been an "accident". There is an up and coming OTCH golden bitch in obedience class. It seems like she is in heat all the time, guess what, we still go to class and we still do the exercises with her being just a few feet away. The first time she was in heat in class, he did try to make a move, but I was ready for him. (imagine that ) I taught him that was not approprate behavior. Hasn't been much of a problem since.

[GenHannibal]

Basically, Maureen, it is your opinion whether you agree or not. Having raised 10 rotties at one time, with most of them being intact and no "ooops" litter, it's a no brainer. Management & diligence on the owners part. None of my dogs were allowed to be with my bitches when they were in heat. Anytime the bitches were outside, I was with them. Yes, eventually both dogs & bitches were neutered/spayed, but after the age of two. Sure there are concerns with pet owners and unneutered pets, however, it really wouldn't matter. Because the bitch could get pregnant at 6 months or 2 years. People break their contracts all the time and go ahead and breed, regardless of the age of the pet. Nick, obviously, had been responsible up to this point and it was the kennel who was irresponsible. What about if you had a show bitch staying there, she wouldn't be spayed would she? You'd be dealing with the same problem...kennel was negligent!

[Judi W]

Most "pet" owners are quite often in only dog homes.

I believe what truly offends me to the point that I can hardly type is for someone to believe that because a dog is a pet it does not deserve to have the same considerations for its health, physical and mental, that a non-pet dog would be given. That is what is offensive, not a breeder asking the consideration for puppies placed be for the best influences that can affect the well-being of the individual pups for their lifetime.

[RottieMom51503]

Thank you GenHannibal and fbkeays you both bring up very valid points. This Thread was about Rottie who had been in a unfortunate situation and may have gotten pregnant. This is not my dog nor I have been in this situation with my dog or any other dog for that fact so I didn't know which was the safest direction to go in fixing the problem. Breeding Holly has never been an option Nick and he had always planned to have her fixed at the age of twenty four months. Nick does custom vechile detailing out of his house, works as a personal trainer at the local gym and teaches agility at the obedience where Daphne and I met them. He is also trying to get a play group together at the school for dogs over the age of twenty four months and wants to eventually teach Obedience. On top of this Holly competes in agility. Nick and Holly are both busy and If you knew Nick you would be really Impressed with his relationship with his Dog and what he has done with her. Nick has been asked if he was going to breed Holly by complete strangers at the pet store, when we have taken Holly and Daphne to the local park and even at school and he always told everyone she was already fixed. On top of his contract telling him he had to spay her he is too busy for a litter of puppies. He has had people wanting him to take homeless dogs and he has said no because he thinks him and Holly are too busy.

Anyhow this thread was about what I should do from this point and I feel confident with Judi W, TargonRott and frontierrotts suggestion on spaying her now. That's all I was looking for not an argument on which is the best time to fix a female dog. I think everyone has their own opioions but it should be left up to you and your breeder when the proper time to spay your dog is. I feel the kennel is at fault here, but that 's my opinion, they don't feel the same but that's their opinion. Nick doesn't want to fight with them he just wants to make sure Holly doesn't have any puppies.

Thanks everyone for all your help in deciding which route was the best one to take.

[Rotty4Me]

I am amazed sometimes how words can be put into other's mouths. Whenever did I say that a pet does not deserve the same considerations as a non pet? I don't know where that is coming from? This is incredibly hurtful. I have spent my entire life being an advocate for the pet dog. I've worked in animal shelters & have watched unwanted animals go to their deaths. I never said this bitch's owner was incapable, I plainly stated I did not blame him or the caretakers. I find that if this is a new trend toward waiting till bitches are 24 months to neuter, that there is going to be a rise in unwanted litters. The average pet owner is not as aware or understanding of the necessary steps to take with an intact dog. And isn't there something to be said about the more indepth the surgery becomes once they have had cycles?

I am very glad all will be fine with the bitch in question. I also agree to the immediate spay.

Maureen

[moondog]

Originally Posted by Judi W

Many knowlegeable people prefer that any desexing take place after physical maturity. This makes a considerable difference regarding spay incontinence and is also discovered to be a possible influence on osteo and other skeletal provisions.

Originally Posted by Rotty4Me

I understand this, but do not agree with a pet dog being allowed to come into heat before neutering

This is where it came from. The good reasons for a later spay were given, and you "understand, but don't agree" that these reasons should have an effect on spay decisions for pet dogs, even if their welfare is at risk.

Originally Posted by Rotty4Me

This is incredibly hurtful.

I have not responded to this thread because I was afraid of what I might say, but now I'm going to say it. Hurtful? To whom? I am Patti, Pet Dog Owner. I recently had to put my TREASURED companion, Luna, The Pet Dog, to sleep because of osteosarcoma. Who got hurt here? Luna DIED, as have many other Pet Dogs who didn't deserve to succumb to this disease. If waiting to spay her would have spared her the PAIN and DEATH of this terrible disease, who are you to say that shouldn't be done??? I'm sorry, but you really brought out the mama bear in me with this. The hair is bristling on the back of my neck.

Originally Posted by Rotty4Me

The average pet owner is not as aware or understanding of the necessary steps to take with an intact dog. And isn't there something to be said about the more indepth the surgery becomes once they have had cycles?

Then the average pet owner needs more education and the average breeder needs to be more careful where they place their puppies, don't you think? I'll take my chances with a skilled surgeon over the heartbreak of osteosarcoma any day.

[Rotty4Me]

Originally Posted by moondog

I have not responded to this thread because I was afraid of what I might say, but now I'm going to say it. Hurtful? To whom? I am Patti, Pet Dog Owner. I recently had to put my TREASURED companion, Luna, The Pet Dog, to sleep because of osteosarcoma. Who got hurt here? Luna DIED, as have many other Pet Dogs who didn't deserve to succumb to this disease. If waiting to spay her would have spared her the PAIN and DEATH of this terrible disease, who are you to say that shouldn't be done??? I'm sorry, but you really brought out the mama bear in me with this. The hair is bristling on the back of my neck.

And the hair was bristling on the back of my neck as well when I felt that there was a disregard to the problems that can occur by not doing early neutering. I have been there holding onto & watching unwanted litters of puppies & kittens be euthanized because their parents' pregnancies were unplanned. My heart immediately jumped to those days, when I considered what could go wrong by allowing a pet bitch puppy to come into heat several times before she is neutered. I can't help but think it is an accident waiting to happen.

What I did not realize was that this particular breeder wanted to delay the spaying of said bitch because she was trying to off set possible health issues down the road. I have dealt with a number of both the back yard & supposed reputable breeders who have nothing but $$ signs before their eyes when it comes to breeding. I jumped to the conclusion that this breeder wanted to wait till the bitch was 24 months to assess whether she was breeding quality. I feel there are still too many rottweiler puppies being pumped out annually & so was quick to accuse. I apologize to the breeder as I now realize she was only thinking of the bitch's well being.

Osteosarcoma can occur in unneutered animals as well. Intact rottweilers of either sex unfortunately succumb to this horrible disease quite often.

My point was not to offend anyone. Truly. I only wanted to state my opinion on the matter.

Maureen

[moondog]

Originally Posted by Rotty4Me

I have been there holding onto & watching unwanted litters of puppies & kittens be euthanized because their parents' pregnancies were unplanned. My heart immediately jumped to those days, when I considered what could go wrong by allowing a pet bitch puppy to come into heat several times before she is neutered.

I do understand how senseless it all is and the urgency to find a solution, knowing the solution is really very simple...taking responsibility...and how hard it is to teach what is essentially conscience. However, I do not understand why any dog of mine should be required to carry that burden if it doesn't apply, which is why I have a problem with the painting of a broad brush.

Originally Posted by Rotty4Me

What I did not realize was that this particular breeder wanted to delay the spaying of said bitch because she was trying to off set possible health issues down the road.

That is my impression from what has been said here.

Originally Posted by Rotty4Me

Osteosarcoma can occur in unneutered animals as well. Intact rottweilers of either sex unfortunately succumb to this horrible disease quite often.

Yes, of course you're right. It's also true that we can get hit by a car when we cross the street, and that if we remember to look both ways before crossing, we greatly improve our chances of making it to the other side. If waiting to spay has the potential to prevent disease, which the statistics do indicate, then we would be foolish not to recognize that and act accordingly.

[Rotty4Me]

Originally Posted by moondog

If waiting to spay has the potential to prevent disease, which the statistics do indicate, then we would be foolish not to recognize that and act accordingly.

As long as one realizes statistics also show a very negative side to not spaying or neutering as well. In the hands of some BYB who gets wind of the idea they can sell their puppies "ethically" now by saying they don't have to be neutered till later on, leaves a whole ball of wax yet to be dealt with. That's all the point I was trying to make.

Maureen