Define Menacing Behaviour

[TrishB]

Hi all,

How would you define "menacing behaviour"?

What behaviour do you feel could be easily misinterpreted by the average person as menacing?

If the only criteria was "believes to be menacing" what do you think should qualify and should not?

In order to evaluate the behaviour accurately - what kind of training do you think would be needed, if any?

[SonnyRott]

I would define menacing behavior as one that is inappropriate to its surroundings/environment particularly if there is no threat i.e., growling, snapping, showing teeth, body stiffening, curling lip and lunging with intent to bite.

What might be misinterpreted by the average person as menacing would be a dog running along the perimeter of its property barking and pacing, alert barking, excited barking, dog staring and holding a confident position (without lunging), or a dog that lunges and/or is nippy due to overexcitment or lack of manners.

I am not sure about the last question. Do you mean what type of training people need to evaluate the dog's behavior, or training for the dog who displays this behavior?

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by SonnyRott

I am not sure about the last question. Do you mean mean what type of training people need to evaluate the dog's behavior, or training for the dog who displays this behavior?

Training of the person to be able to accurately identify the behaviour.

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by TrishB

Hi all,

1) How would you define "menacing behaviour"?
2) What behaviour do you feel could be easily misinterpreted by the average person as menacing?
3) If the only criteria was "believes to be menacing" what do you think should qualify and should not?
4) In order to evaluate the behaviour accurately - what kind of training do you think would be needed, if any?

I'll give my thoughts.

1) Menacing behaviour is the threatening of, or the potential behaviour to inflict harm.

2) A boisterous dog, a 'talkative' dog, a dog protecting its owners property, an ill mannered dog from lack of training.

3) Menacing would have to be the commitment of intent to do harm. So snapping, snarling, hackles up, lunging, square stance, stiff movement - a combination of 2 or more. Not qualifing would be a dog who jumps up due to lack of training (no intent to cause harm), a boisterous dog leaping a playing (no intent) - simply where there is a lacking of commitment / intent to cause harm.

4) I would like the person to attend (at minimum) a basic course in canine behaviour or an equivalent minimum 2 years of practical experience as demonstrated and documented by references.

[miccmill]

(/QUOTE) 4) I would like the person to attend (at minimum) a basic course in canine behaviour or an equivalent minimum 2 years of practical experience as demonstrated and documented by references.[/quote]

I couldn't agree with you more.

We have a fearful Rotti girl who used to display any number of fear avoidance behaviors that certainly appeared menacing. Although she never acted out with intent to bite, being one step away from fear aggression is close enough.
It's us (husband, son and myself) who are learning from the classes. Our trainer and the forum is teaching us to understand her needs and read her body language in order to give her the best training for her personality. She is smart and willing with a sweet disposition so everything we've been taught to do has made a positive impact.
We'll be in classes for as long as it takes us to learn how to help her reach her potential.

[Skip]

[quote=TrishB]I'll give my thoughts.

2) A boisterous dog, a 'talkative' dog, a dog protecting its owners property, an ill mannered dog from lack of training.
QUOTE]


I don't think an ill-mannered dog is "misinterpreted by the average person as menacing". If the dog is ill-mannered, the owner does not have enough common sense to know whether the dog is menacing or not. My opinion is that a dog should not show ANY signs of aggression unless there is a clear and present threat. My only exception to this is when I am rough-housing with my own dog. He is not allowed to do this with anyone else. And I think "protecting its owners property" is way too vague. How and under what circumstance?

[TrishB]

Skip - the reason I'm asking these questions is because it's proposed in a new bill here in Ontario. Police officers, municipal bylaw officers and officers 'as appointed by the bill' will all be the individuals making these decisions (OSPCA officials as well - but the police will represent the majority). Now although I fully agree that police officers are well trained in law enforcement, they are NOT trained in dog behaviour.

An ill-mannered dog that drags an owner around and gooses people is not behaving menacing. I agree. But I do believe that it could be 'interpreted' as menacing as it is unwanted, uninvited contact. It could scare people. If the dog 'inspires' fear in the person - isn't that menacing to that person? If an ill-mannered dog paws at an elderly person while on the street to get attention / play / etc. it could easily tear their fragile skin. Is the intent there to be menacing? No - but an injury did result which would be enough for people to equate it to being a 'menace'.

Should our dogs be found as 'menacing' - they may be seized from us right then and there in the public place that we are in (by people who aren't trained in how to handle animals). They'll be turned over to municipal pounds (kill - not no kill) by law and destroyed. They can also issue a warrant to enter your home and to take your dog 'by any means of force deemed necessary' by these same, untrained officers.

This bill terrifies me to say the least. When Parker grabs his leash and leaps around like a nut and growls like Godzilla - he's just playing (yes it's irritating - but apparently I'm dealing with genetics here. His father did it and many of his puppies do it). Anyone with dog behaviour knowledge laughs when they see him gleefully leaping around (he's not pulling the leash, just leaping with it). They think it's great that such a big dog is having so much fun. But those who don't know dogs thinks he's being threatening / menacing. I don't want to lose my dog because someone thinks his playing is scary.

Sure - I can not let him play with the leash - but the rest of his life? Never in a public place? I can't guarantee my dog isn't going to want to enjoy himself at some point - he's only 28 months old. There's still LOTS of play in this pup yet.

I worry about all dog owners whose dogs may have a habit or two that could be misinterpreted as menacing. I worry about those crazy neighbours that may *say* a dog has been menacing just to get rid of your dog. I worry because there is no accountability on the part of the officer that makes the call. There is no recognition of a dogs training, history, certificates in temperament or obedience. It is lacking any opportunity for the owner to attend classes / educate themselves to change the behaviour.

The dog gets seized and destroyed. I wish I were exaggerating.

[SonnyRott]

True story.

I walk Sonny on a particular route every day. We pass by a high school. There are always kids out and about. The high school property is bordered by a home with many animals. One particular animal is a dog named "Moose". According to the owner, he is a Rottie/Blk Lab/Great Dane mix. His tail is docked and he looks like an all black, HUGE Rottweiler.

Whenever this dog is out and he sees anyone approaching, he goes into a crazed frenzy of slamming the fence, snapping, growling and barking uncontrollably. He jumps so ferociously at the fence, that at times, he is almost able to get out. He tries to dig and claw his way out, even biting the metal fencing. At times, he even foams at the mouth. Needless to say, this dog has been a menace to the neighbors as they fear for their children walking to and from the school.

One particular neighbor, watching the commotion this dog made as we walked by, offered to let me walk in his yard (which is across the street with no sidewalk), so that Sonny and I would be safer should this dog get out. He explained to me that this dog has been a nuisance for years and the police had been summoned on a number of occassions. One day, it jumped the fence and the neighbors across the street feared for their little girl playing in her yard. This has made for much bad blood between the neighbors.

Recently, I walked by this property and Moose's owner was outside. I started to cross the street as I normally do, when she called to me. I had never seen her before. She loved Sonny and wanted to see my Rottweiler up close. I told her I was concerned about her dog as he displays such aggression whenever he sees Sonny. So she put her dog in the house.

We met and had a nice conversation. I explained how afraid her neighbors were of her dog and how menacing he was. I told her I had to agree with the neighbors as her dog almost got out and came after us several times. She asked if I wanted to meet Moose. I said sure, if he's on a leash. So out comes Moose, completely under the owner's control, and calm as you please. I didn't think it was the same dog. She explained she has done much OB training with him (and it showed). He happily performed all his basic commands for her, and then for me. She said if he ever displayed this type of behavior to tell him to "KNOCK IT OFF" and he would. So now, everytime we pass by and he goes into his Cujo rountine, I tell him to "KNOCK IT OFF" and he does and then trots back to the house.

By anyone's standards (even mine, and I had met him up front and personal) he continues to display OVER THE TOP menacing behavior. I still am not convinced that should this dog get out that he may do major damage.

If a law were passed and officers were allowed to confiscate and put down dogs for menacing behavior, this dog would qualify. He has never bitten anyone and the owner would mourn her much loved companion.

I have noticed that he is not out and about anymore during times when the sidewalks are the busiest.

Tough call.

[Diane Heller-Vaccaro]

I know how you feel Trish and I know what you are talking about, but how does the average person know if the dog is all bark and no bite. The unfortunate thing here, again, is that it leaves alot to be interrpeted. What I consider menacing might be down right dangerous behavior to another.

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by Diane Heller-Vaccaro

I know how you feel Trish and I know what you are talking about, but how does the average person know if the dog is all bark and no bite. The unfortunate thing here, again, is that it leaves alot to be interrpeted. What I consider menacing might be down right dangerous behavior to another.

And that is my concern. How will we know unless these dogs are subjected to tests by trained, knowledgeable people?

I understand where they are going with this bill (this part at least). But this is just wrong. If a dog is a 'suspected menace' then I would like the dog to be reviewed by someone knowledgeable. i.e. Getting a notice that:

Your dog has been identified as a possible menace. An OSPCA officer (i.e trained individual) will be coming by your home on XX date to evaluate your dog and to make recommendations which may include but are not limited to: no further action required, owner education, obedience classes, behavioural consultation, and possible designation of a dangerous dog.

That way the owner is aware of the situation, can prepare, receives due diligence, the dog is presented in a calm, controlled manner, creates the opportunity for open dialog with the owner.... you see where I'm going with this.

Right now - there's nothing of that. There's nothing regarding warnings. An owner would go from being completely unaware to their dog being seized and destroyed. Some may say it wouldn't happen like that - but with the way this law is written - it could and it would be completely legal.

[Diane Heller-Vaccaro]

An owner can take some extra measures. I'm not saying I agree, what I'm saying is I would do anything to keep my dogs safe. If you have a dog that is kenneled you might want to consider putting up a kennel in the garage or crating your dog when your not home. If not I would, and do have a 7 foot stockade fence around my home. My dogs are inside when I'm not home and supervised outside when they are out. If I hear a peep I'm right there, they also are not allowed to fence fight or bark at the neighbors or people who pass by. It's not perfect but it's my attempt to keep my dogs safe. When I moved from my apartment a few years ago to a house the people who lived downstairs from me said they never knew I had 2 Rottweilers.

I do consider charging at the fence or bouncing off the fence menacing. It can be intimidating to see a 100# dog with his elbows hanging over the 4 foot fence barking and growling as you walk by and I do realize that same dog is probably very friendly when off his property.

One thing for sure, there is not an easy answer to this problem.

[Evilhorde]

I too, am quite concerned over the possible definitions of 'menacing'.
My dog is a little 'overstuffed' at 160lbs, and when I walk him, people down the street notice him coming and cross the road. Now he has NEVER been aggressive in any way to another dog or person, (maybe a little bouncy at times, he is only 1 1/2). Since people feel the need to avoid my dog, I suppose this means that my dog is menacing. Hardly seems fair to the poor fellah, just because he is big for his breed, he is going to have to spend his life in a muzzle/cage/dogpound. And where would this lead if I did that anyhow? I would have a powerful dog with no proper socialization. nice. This sounds more like a way to cause a problem, than to fix one.

[SonnyRott]

Did I read that right.....160 lbs?

[StephanieandToby]

Originally Posted by SonnyRott

Did I read that right.....160 lbs?

I've noticed a few REALLY oversized Rottweilers in Victoria...I think there might be someone nearby who breeds them TALL and WIDE! They are HUGE!

[StephanieandToby]

MENACE :1.) something that seems likely to bring harm or danger; a threatening quality. 2.)an annoying or troublesome person or thing. (OXFORD DICTIONARY) .......I can't imagaine my dog being impounded for being "annoying."...If this thing goes through, it will be chaos..