Explaining Dog:Dog Aggression Vs. Dog:Human Aggression

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by Burnsway

The same thing could be said about you and some of the threads you open such as Why have an intact dog? You know darn well that could be a heated thread but you started it along with others like it. Why? Because "YOU" want arguments or because you want to learn?

That thread was to ask why people had intact dogs. Period. Then it went off on some neutering rant.

All I wanted to know was the reasoning that people had intact dogs. I do as well! And I gave my reasons why - as I had made the decision to keep him intact. I wanted to see if others had made the conscious decision to have their dogs intact or if they just hadn't bothered to do otherwise about it. I was happy to see that people had reasons and not just that it was inconvenient.

But this is off topic (big surprize).

[K9-man]

Originally Posted by German Vanegas

a dog with strong dog-aggressive behavior, in combination with high prey drive, can be triggered to attack a child, due to the normal actions of children.

No arguments here. The key word being *can*, not *will*.

[Burnsway]

Originally Posted by K9-man

No arguments here. The key word being *can*, not *will*.

Exactly!!!!!!! He never once said they all will. But It does not take a pro to see that a high prey driven dog with dog to dog aggression could very well aim those traits towards a child..........

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by K9-man

No arguments here. The key word being *can*, not *will*.

Therefore, it boils down to this: you cannot casually tell the "Average Joe" something like, "Don't worry about dog-aggressive behavior, that does not mean that such dog will attack a child'" which was the original inquiry of this thread, because it can happen. Is it worth the risk?!...

[Skip]

Originally Posted by TrishB

.......
The fact that you're still harping on it and trying to force the issue just makes me and others roll their eyes and ignore you. ......
.

I've really enjoyed reading this debate...but unless you've done some kind of a poll first, please don't feel free to speak for "others" here on this topic.

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by Skip

I've really enjoyed reading this debate...but unless you've done some kind of a poll first, please don't feel free to speak for "others" here on this topic.

Thank YOU Skip. A few people out there claim to preside this "club" against me, according to them few, because I am full of it... Maybe But I do know what I am talking about

[Judi W]

If someone has had incident(s) with their dog attacking other dogs, the solution is not a misguided defense (the breed standard, the other dog was on leash, the other dog was off leash, whatever). The solution is to see that it is not repeated. It really is that easy. Even if every person on this forum agreed that Rottweilers are "supposed" to be dog aggressive or that it was always TOGDI (blame the other person/dog) it would do little to redeem the dog or the breed in the eyes of the victim or those who hear the story.

If Rottweilers were supposed to be uncontrolled aggressive towards other dogs (which is in itself untrue), then responsible owners should see to it that they are never ever put in a position of being able to do act on it.

[Bruce Lanthier]

Originally Posted by TrishB

The fact that you're still harping on it and trying to force the issue just makes me and others roll their eyes and ignore you. Which is quite sad because most times, you have some very interesting views.

You may want to check and see exactly why they are rolling eyes, and at whom they are rolling them, before actually speaking for "others". You do not have to be pals with someone to recognize the value and truth in their advice or comments.

Now on topic: I have a dog that is the furthest thing from being aggressive to humans. But when she is in the pen out back and my 3 year old daughter is running around the back yard with her friends, Betti is very "attentive". She is a high prey girl and ANYTHING small (her size or less) and moving kicks her into high gear. She is not dog aggressive and she would still run a child down, I'm sure. Now, couple that high prey with a dog aggressive dog and now instead of maybe knocking the child down with a shoulder it may get brought down with teeth. Along with the others I would have to agree with German. He is just using simple logic concerning dog behavior here. I'm not sure how anyone could disagree with it. It CAN happen, WILL it happen depends on the dog's training and the leadership of the dog's owner.

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lanthier

...You do not have to be pals with someone to recognize the value and truth in their advice or comments.

Don't you and I know it?

Originally Posted by Bruce Lanthier

...Along with the others I would have to agree with German. He is just using simple logic concerning dog behavior here. I'm not sure how anyone could disagree with it. It CAN happen, WILL it happen depends on the dog's training and the leadership of the dog's owner.

I don't pretend to know-it-all, however, when it comes to the subject of dogs in general THAT is my passion in life. My knowledge and experience, along with trials and errors, have accumulated throughout the years; consequently, my sole honest intention is to share with others my personal education and help (or assist) people to become better informed so they can do better for our beloved breed. Therefore, dispeling myths and wrong notions are my strong points

[Judi W]

It is the unwarranted optimistic confidence that a dog aggressive dog is not going to misdirect its aggression that is frightening. This is why the more experienced recommend caution, caution and more caution.

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by Judi W

It is the unwarranted optimistic confidence that a dog aggressive dog is not going to misdirect its aggression that is frightening. This is why the more experienced recommend caution, caution and more caution.

Right. Part of the problem too is that some people want to hear only what they agree with. So if they think that a dog with dog-aggressive behavior and high prey drive is not threat to humans, particularly children, then that's all they want to hear. One wonders, why they ask in doubt in the first place?

[LynnS]

Originally Posted by Judi W

It is the unwarranted optimistic confidence that a dog aggressive dog is not going to misdirect its aggression that is frightening. This is why the more experienced recommend caution, caution and more caution.

I have followed this thread with great interest. Thank you Judi and German for touching on a fact that is easily overlooked by many. If the dogs drives are there and the dog is unchecked, I can think of many scenarios where a child or adult could be bit.

I also agree that too may owners overlook their responsibility in responding to agreesion to other dogs because that is expected in the breed. I definately was guilty of this line of thought (although Bella is not universally dog aggressive)...once someone pounded it in my head that it was a training issue I had half a chance to fix the problem. Could Bella possibly bite a child unsupervised? Not a doubt in my mind that the answer is yes in specific circumstances.

I also want to add that this board has an incredible resource in people like German and Judi who are well respected authorities on training and the breed. Although I may not understand or agree with everything I certainly do not roll my eyes. If you are not open to thoughts and ideas or only listen selectively, then you are only seeking self reinforcement not knowledge.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by Judi W

It only takes a single encounter for people to form an opinion that the breed itself is vicious and should be banned.

Originally Posted by Judi W

I was once told that each individual dog represents its breed to those that meet it and that is quite true. They are not meeting two hundred and saying well, only five percent is vicious. They are meeting that one dog and for them it is one hundred percent.

This is SO TRUE that it simply oozes TRUTH. Having been on the receiving end of one of those single encounters, I can tell you that all the statistics in the world do not erase that one dog and that 100%. I believe I am very open-minded and I do understand the statistics from an intellectual point of view, but emotionally...........let's just say I need pitbull therapy. The statistics do not help relieve me of that lump in my throat when I come across a pitbull. The reality of the scare I experienced belies any statistic one could present to me, and this is coming from one adamantly against the implementation of BSL.

I think this natural human response to a dangerous behavior exhibited by an identifiable breed is what fuels BSL and it certainly drives home the point of how important the positive presentation in public of EACH and EVERY Rottweiler is and what that presentation means in our efforts to "blame the deed, not the breed".

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by LynnS

...I also want to add that this board has an incredible resource in people like German and Judi who are well respected authorities on training and the breed. Although I may not understand or agree with everything I certainly do not roll my eyes. If you are not open to thoughts and ideas or only listen selectively, then you are only seeking self reinforcement not knowledge.

I appreciate you wisdom and your open mind. No one should impose an idea without the certainty that is the right concept, because a wrong notion (like in this particular case) can produce a tragedy. You cannot be so casual with dogs and children. Therefore, I think is a grave mistake to tell the “Average Joe” that dog-aggressive behavior does not represent danger to children; where the smaller the children the higher the odds that a dog with an intense dog-aggression, and high prey drive, may attack and bite a child.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by German Vanegas

Therefore, I think is a grave mistake to tell the “Average Joe” that dog-aggressive behavior does not represent danger to children;

i think it is a grave mistake not to tell everybody that every dog is a danger to children. even the beloved family furbaby is a danger to a child whether a dog is dog agressive or not most injuries to children are prey related it starts out as the fun of the chase for the dog then once caught whether by being knocked down or with teeth the child struggles (which would be expected) or runs again and what may have started out as agression or even play/prey on the part of the dog turns from a bad situation to a grave situation and a child can be severyly hurt or killed..actually it is of my opinion that most child injuries are simply accidants caused by poor ownership of the dog and poor parenting by the parents child which put the dog and child interacting in situations that they should not be in in the 1st place,more so than any type of aggression shown by the dog. i'll add i agree with everything german has said in this thread and things can and will happen as he has said..