Explaining Dog:Dog Aggression Vs. Dog:Human Aggression

[MaddoxsMom]

I respect so many of you, and trully believe in your theories and methods, but one thing that I wonder everytime I read it is this: If a dogs likelyhood to attack a dog or a human rests mostly with its breeding, and the type of human contact its had, does this mean that only poorly bred, poorly raised/treated animals are the only ones that bite???

What about a mutt someone picks up from the pound? I have seen some of the best companions in the world come from the pound, with no history of breeding, and no prior history on the dogs former owners/lifestyle/imprinting, etc. become one of the most beloved wonderful family dogs you caould ever want.

Once, about 2 years ago I had two 5 month old rotts, 1 male, 1 female under my care temporarily. I also had a pet chinchilla of my own. The Chinchilla had a bedroom to her self, enclosed in her cage. Everyday when I went to work, both dogs were contained in the kitchen, on the tile. Two dog beds, toys, etc.

Well, I come home from work, and I see from my entrance hall that the gate blocking the doorway to the rest of the house was knocked over, and I could hear the puppies in the spare room where I kept Garcia, (chinchilla).

My heart sank right there. I knew. I walked back there, and for some unknown reason, they were closed in the room. I still to this day have no idea how the door got closed with them in the room, i think one of them must have knocked it shut while they were chasing Garcia.

I accidentally had left the door open that morning, the dogs got out of their area, and tipped the cage over and hat eaten my chinchilla. I swear to all of you reading this, there was only evidence of that animal by the blood on the walls of the bedroom and on the mouths of the dogs. There was no fur, no bones, no tail...nothing.

I was devastated. I had no idea that these two puppies were capable of what they had done. It sounds dumb, i know, but I just thought they were goofy, kinda dumb still, and would never do something like this, like eat and devour another domesticated animal in the house.

I was very upset over this, and when my husband came home he told me, "Logan, Garcia was small, furry, and she ran. They are dogs. Thats what dogs do." Well, no matter what anyone says, it is true. Just like some dogs will revert to their instincts and try to take over our house (their pack) like our leader (as the Alpha). No matter how far we have come in the domestication process, they are still animals, can still be un-predictable, and when in a group of more than one, are twice as destructive, twice as animalistic.

Did these dogs do this because they were poorly bred? No, they werent. Did they do this because they were the product of poor ownership? No, they were socialized, obediant, sweet natured (and still are) dogs.

Some times we cant blame everything on breeding, tempermant, socialization, etc. Sometimes, although hard to admit, our beloved dogs are just that, dogs.

Does this mean that their behavior constitutes an attack against a child is sure to come? I doubt it, have they ever hurt anyone since this? No...both are doing fine with their owner.

I think that the more we break this down, and the more we psycho analyze it, like I said, a dog is a dog. They are animals. Animals are unpredictable, no matter how domesticated.


Logan

[Judi W]

Did you believe that proper breeding and raising erased the species attributes? I very much doubt it.

The purpose of pure bred and attention to genetics is to improve the predictability of not just appearance, but behaviors. It is that predictablity that causes one to pay attention to backgrounds and breed. Of course good dogs can come from casual or mixed breedings, but it is the result of chance.

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by Judi W

Did you believe that proper breeding and raising erased the species attributes? I very much doubt it.

The purpose of pure bred and attention to genetics is to improve the predictability of not just appearance, but behaviors. It is that predictablity that causes one to pay attention to backgrounds and breed. Of course good dogs can come from casual or mixed breedings, but it is the result of chance.

I am clapping standing up

[TrishB]

What I believe that this all comes down to is:

If a dog attacks anything - the attack must be evaluated as to what were the triggers. Was it prey driven, dominance driven, fear driven, protective driven, etc. Then those drives considered, to the level of the attack and the situation in which it occurred to see if it is a further danger to others (animal, human or otherwise).

My previous dog Bridget (Aussie Cattle Dog) had a very high prey drive. She would bring home squirrels and chipmunks, muzzle full of quills, etc. She also had severe separation anxiety.

Did she ever hurt a child? Yes, she nipped a 4 year old on the shoulder (my fault, she got overwhelmed with all of the little ones running around squealing, no broken skin, just a red pinch). Was it prey driven? No. I can say that with complete certainty (and also after discussing it with the behaviouralist we were working with at the time for her separation anxiety). It was out of her herding drive. She had been watching the kids, walking around them but not into the group. One 'broke from the pack' and she drove him back my nipping his shoulder.

In that situation - the bringing home of small animals had nothing to do with nipping that child. Two very different drives were at work.

I don't believe that an attack on another animal DEFAULTS a dog to attack a person / child. Just as I don't think an attack on a person / child DEFAULTS a dog to also attack other animals. There may very well be a link - but it needs to be evaluated on its own merits.

Therefore, I don't agree with defaulting to - "Oh my God! That little dog could have been a child!" in my humble opinion. I'd rather wait until all of the details are known, the dog evaluated, the situation weighed and THEN make a decision.

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by TrishB

...Therefore, I don't agree with defaulting to - "Oh my God! That little dog could have been a child!" in my humble opinion. I'd rather wait until all of the details are known, the dog evaluated, the situation weighed and THEN make a decision.

Prevention is way better than the cure. You don't wait to se if maybe two very aggressive dogs that dared to rip a small dog to pieces may try to attack a child. It's too risky. Human life weighs heavily way more than dogs. My opinion is that a dog born with an intense inter-dog aggression, plus high prey drive, may create a danger combination, which can be triggered by natural actions of small children. Therefore, I do not think for a moment that is worth taking the chance with children. There are different values to ponder; I protect children first

[TrishB]

Originally posted by German Vanegas
My opinion is that a dog born with an intense inter-dog aggression, plus high prey drive, may create a danger combination, which can be triggered by natural actions of small children.

I can't believe you said this! So all Rottweilers that have dog:dog aggression (which is not faulted in our breed and a high prey drive (which is an encouraged trait in our breed) are a danger to all small children? Wow - half of our forums had better lock up their dogs for fear of their children!

Responsible ownership protects children - not soft tempered dogs.

[Judi W]

I stated earlier, but guess it got missed, that dog aggression does not mean people aggression cannot also be present. Mindless and uncontrolled aggression, regardless of where it is directed, is incorrect. I don't know whether you are deliberately misrepresenting the standard or have simply misread it, but it states "an aggressive attitude. It also states the dog should be calm and confident. Neither of these calls for or excuses uncontrolled viscious attacking whether another animal or person. Too many people are injured during dog fights to dismiss dog aggression as being innocent where humans are concerned.

Prey drive which directs much behavior also does not mean attacking and ripping. If that were the case there would be precious few herding which is a product of prey drive. The drives of a good dog are directed and controlled.

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by TrishB

I can't believe you said this! So all Rottweilers that have dog:dog aggression (which is not faulted in our breed and a high prey drive (which is an encouraged trait in our breed) are a danger to all small children? Wow - half of our forums had better lock up their dogs for fear of their children!

.

And you wonder why the rottweiler breed tops the list of dangerous dogs?! You seem to think that documented reports of unjustified dog attacks and bites are a "conspiracy" against the rottweiler ...Well, for your information, the rottweiler is not a breed for everybody; nevertheless anybody may have a rottweiler. Unfortunately, irresponsible breeding is a fact of life, and so is negligent careless dog ownership You want to know the raw truth? I tell you: many people are unfit or unqualified to own a powerful breed like the rottweiler. And as shocking as it may sound to you: Yes! A rottweiler can be a dangerous dog... specially in the wrong hands. Pay no attention to that fact and one day you may be regretting a preventable tragedy. So don't cover your sun with your own thumb. Dogs' attacks to children are as real as it gets. For me, children safety is first and foremost... and I love dogs too but I don't lose sight of facts and reality That is precisely why I pride myself to be a very responsible dog owner

[Skip]

Originally Posted by TrishB

I can't believe you said this! So all Rottweilers that have dog:dog aggression (which is not faulted in our breed and a high prey drive (which is an encouraged trait in our breed) are a danger to all small children? Wow - half of our forums had better lock up their dogs for fear of their children!

Responsible ownership protects children - not soft tempered dogs.

German (wise man that he is) used the phrase "CAN be triggered"...he didn't say "WILL unconditionally be triggered everytime". His words made a lot of sense to me.

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by Skip

German (wise man that he is) used the phrase "CAN be triggered"...he didn't say "WILL unconditionally be triggered everytime". His words made a lot of sense to me.

Thank you Skip. You understood correctly what appeared to be quite clear to me, so it is clear then

[damp]

Originally Posted by TrishB

Wow - half of our forums had better lock up their dogs for fear of their children!

You are nearly right on that point. Not half but all of our forums......

We recommend over and over again (with very good reason) … don’t leave your dog and kids unsupervised.

[FredAl]

Originally Posted by TrishB

Did she ever hurt a child? Yes, she nipped a 4 year old on the shoulder (my fault, she got overwhelmed with all of the little ones running around squealing, no broken skin, just a red pinch). Was it prey driven? No. I can say that with complete certainty (and also after discussing it with the behaviouralist we were working with at the time for her separation anxiety). It was out of her herding drive. She had been watching the kids, walking around them but not into the group. One 'broke from the pack' and she drove him back my nipping his shoulder.

You might want to go into a more in-depth discussion with your behaviorist about "herding drive".

Herding drive is controlled prey drive with different behavior manifestations as a result of breeding and training.

[FredAl]

Originally Posted by TrishB

I can't believe you said this! So all Rottweilers that have dog:dog aggression (which is not faulted in our breed and a high prey drive (which is an encouraged trait in our breed) are a danger to all small children? Wow - half of our forums had better lock up their dogs for fear of their children!

Responsible ownership protects children - not soft tempered dogs.

It is only in the compromised AKC breed standard that details the dog-dog aggression not to be faulted, which I find detrimental to Rottweiler breeding. In the FCI/ADRK breed standard, dog-dog aggression is not even dwelled upon. It reads:
Behavior / Temperament

Good natured, placid in basic disposition and fond of children, very devoted, obedient, biddable and eager to work. His appearance is natural and rustic, his behavior self assured, steady and fearless. He reacts to his surroundings with great alertness.

[Judi W]

Fred is absolutely correct and having that stupid phrase in the AKC standard seems to mislead many a novice owner into excusing dog on dog aggression. (partially because they do not seem to read carefully). It should be removed.

Any dog that is hostile to the point of aggression to other dogs cannot be used in work as it means they do not keep their minds on their business and are easily distracted.

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by FredAl

You might want to go into a more in-depth discussion with your behaviorist about "herding drive".

Herding drive is controlled prey drive with different behavior manifestations as a result of breeding and training.

You know Fred, those "dog behavioral experts" are sprouting everywhere with dubious credentials from "dog" universities (pun intended). They appear to claim to be "canine psychologists" and even "dog's mind readers", short of "Tarot readers for dogs"