Explaining Dog:Dog Aggression Vs. Dog:Human Aggression

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by TrishB

German explained that if the dog on dog attack was prey driven, that the same prey drive MAY also cause a dog to human attack. Which I agree with.

I said high prey driven dogs may see small children as prey, so there is a chance for those dogs to attack children, when a dog's prey drive is compound with an innate genetic inter-dog aggression, where the dog is bred and conditioned to fight other dogs. In the case you described the two dogs packed up and probably became predatorial, thus enhancing the possibility to attack children.

Originally Posted by TrishB

But there are many owners here with dog aggressive dogs that don't have high prey drive. Just as not all aggression is related to prey drive. Some have been trained as such, some have weak nerve, some haven't been socialized at all, etc.

You are confused. There are different forms of aggression and prey drive is NOT one of them; therefore, prey drive is not related to aggression.

Originally Posted by TrishB

Again, it's not that I don't agree - it's that I don't think we've covered all of the sources of aggression yet, nor have we explained that one aggression doesn't mean there's a default to exhibit another.

One more time. Dogs that are bred and conditioned for the specific purpose of pit fighting with other dogs have to be very tolerant of human handling. You see, the focus of a fighting dog is not a human being but the opponent dog (As a result of genetic and training factors). Consequently, while fighting dogs are very aggressive towards other dogs usually they are non-aggressive towards humans.

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by German Vanegas

There are different forms of aggression and prey drive is NOT one of them; therefore, prey drive is not related to aggression.

Finally you're on topic! Please discuss this further.

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by TrishB

Finally you're on topic! Please discuss this further.

I thought you knew what prey drive is all about. Umh! Well, don’t worry. I explain it to you. Prey drive in the most primitive motivational force of an animal (including canines). It is based on a survival instinct where a dog hunts for small prey, kills it and then eats it. However, in domesticated dogs, where the need for hunting is either decreased or totally eliminated, depending upon individual circumstances, prey drive is manifested in chasing moving objects, and depending on the type of object, the dog bites the "prey" and shake it and try to keep it as a "trophy" (as in "killed prey"). Prey drive has different levels, from very low to very high, so every dog demonstrates its own level accordingly. In domestic dogs prey drive is used as a motivational force in different aspects of dog training; however, prey drive is NOT to be confused with aggressive behavior simply because prey drive is NOT a form of aggression, albeit you thought so Aggressive behavior is a whole different issue. How about that?

[Mick Trainer]

Quick Reply,

To explain the differecne you must break it down for people to relate inter and external species aggression and to help people better understand dogs like APBT you need to go into social aggression.

As for prey yes it is possible for dogs to attack children in prey and small dogs it is very rare as prey is not related to same species and rarely to other predatory animals. Most dogs will chase in prey but very few will attack a child in prey. Not saying it doesn't happen but it is extremely rare. The Berlin Siege dogs are examples of dogs that do work at such a level in prey but like I said it is rare.

And to better understand prey we must think of it as a behavior/biting without emotion. Like a cat killing a mouse. It is a cold kill.

Mick.

[Dante's Dad]

I know this story as well living near the area.....The dogs were not pure bred pitbulls...Dont really know if that matters, but just wanted to let you guys know that.

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by German Vanegas

I thought you knew what prey drive is all about. Umh!

German - it's for the topic.

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by Mick Trainer

Quick Reply,

To explain the differecne you must break it down for people to relate inter and external species aggression and to help people better understand dogs like APBT you need to go into social aggression.

As for prey yes it is possible for dogs to attack children in prey and small dogs it is very rare as prey is not related to same species and rarely to other predatory animals. Most dogs will chase in prey but very few will attack a child in prey. Not saying it doesn't happen but it is extremely rare. The Berlin Siege dogs are examples of dogs that do work at such a level in prey but like I said it is rare.

And to better understand prey we must think of it as a behavior/biting without emotion. Like a cat killing a mouse. It is a cold kill.

Mick.

Thank you Mick. That is what is so hard to explain. That a bite caused by prey drive and a bite caused by dog aggression and a bite caused by human aggression are very different things. Thank you for taking the time to say it here.

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by Mick Trainer

As for prey yes it is possible for dogs to attack children in prey and small dogs it is very rare as prey is not related to same species and rarely to other predatory animals. Most dogs will chase in prey but very few will attack a child in prey. Not saying it doesn't happen but it is extremely rare.

I'm sorry to contradict you Mick. I agree with you over 90% of the times but not here. The situation with APBT in the USA is way different than in Australia and anywhere else. Dog bites reports in America exceed 700,000 a year, so as you can see there are much more cases and data to be analyzed than anywhere in the world. Many dog attacks I have studied are the result, among other factors, of very high prey driven dogs, with an innate aggression and tenacity, going after small children seeing as prey. The APBT is in top of the list. I can assure you Mick that is not a rare occurrance but quite common instead.

[Mick Trainer]

Originally Posted by German Vanegas

I'm sorry to contradict you Mick. I agree with you over 90% of the times but not here. The situation with APBT in the USA is way different than in Australia and anywhere else. Dog bites reports in America exceed 700,000 a year, so as you can see there are much more cases and data to be analyzed than anywhere in the world. Many dog attacks I have studied are the result, among other factors, of very high prey driven dogs, with an innate aggression and tenacity, going after small children seeing as prey. The APBT is in top of the list. I can assure you Mick that is not a rare occurrance but quite common instead.

I have no reason nor cause to argue this. I speak of my experience here and of my evaluations I have conducted upon dogs who have bitten/attacked for courts etc here in Aus and have not found one case were it is believed the dog thought the child was prey not that it attacked showing prey orientated typography. It may very well be different in the US I would not know. However I have assessed game bred and tested APBT before and whilst they should extremely large levels of prey orientation they have not sought to trigger this towards humans. Further to this I do not feel APBT fight out of prey but rather a social or non-classical aggression. Once again I speak of dogs here.

Mick.

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by Mick Trainer

I have no reason nor cause to argue this. I speak of my experience here and of my evaluations I have conducted upon dogs who have bitten/attacked for courts etc here in Aus and have not found one case were it is believed the dog thought the child was prey not that it attacked showing prey orientated typography. It may very well be different in the US I would not know. However I have assessed game bred and tested APBT before and whilst they should extremely large levels of prey orientation they have not sought to trigger this towards humans. Further to this I do not feel APBT fight out of prey but rather a social or non-classical aggression. Once again I speak of dogs here.

Well Mick now you are contradicting yourself. Before you stated the following:

MicK Trainer stated: "As for prey yes it is possible for dogs to attack children in prey and small dogs it is very rare as prey is not related to same species and rarely to other predatory animals. Most dogs will chase in prey but very few will attack a child in prey. Not saying it doesn't happen but it is extremely rare. The Berlin Siege dogs are examples of dogs that do work at such a level in prey but like I said it is rare.

And to better understand prey we must think of it as a behavior/biting without emotion. Like a cat killing a mouse. It is a cold kill. "

Then in your follow up reply you categorically deny the possibility of a dog, triggered by prey drive, attacking a child. You changed you position by stating this:

Mick Trainer stated: "I speak of my experience here and of my evaluations I have conducted upon dogs who have bitten/attacked for courts etc here in Aus and have not found one case were it is believed the dog thought the child was prey not that it attacked showing prey orientated typography. It may very well be different in the US I would not know. However I have assessed game bred and tested APBT before and whilst they should extremely large levels of prey orientation they have not sought to trigger this towards humans."

So I don't get it. You said it may happen but then you basically said it couldn’t happen. In my opinion it does happen.

As far as pit bulls or dog-aggressive behavior is concerned, I have not say in any way, shape or form, that dogs fighting other dogs do it out of prey drive. Nope! I did not say that. What I said was, a high driven dog with an innate dog aggression could see children as small prey. That is what I said.

Dog-aggressive behavior is a genetic trait that has been stimulated and bred into specific breeds (nowadays in some line of dogs) for the purpose of fighting dogs. It is called gameness within the so-called "dogmen" or enthusiasts of dog pit fighting.

The aberrant fascination of men with violent encounters among animals produced an ancient "dog sport" of baiting dogs against a variety of other animals and later on fighting dogs in pits. The courage, tenacity, and intense aggressiveness of certain breeds, such as the bulldog, pit bull, neapolitan mastiffs, and other similar breeds, excelled back in the days. Specific breeds were induced, conditioned, and provoked into fighting other dogs, which occurred by utilizing inborn aggression and canalizing it into dog-aggressive behavior. The trait became profoundly marked in certain breeds and, therefore, dog-aggressive behavior became genetically transmitted. The rest is history; the evilness of humans developed the denoted fighting breeds. Albeit, thanks to sensible laws banning the cruelty of dog pit fighting, inter-dog aggression has been diminished greatly, and in some lines even diluted.

In any case, pit bulls do not fight out of prey drive, as you and I well know. However, dog-aggressive dogs, high in prey drive, may see small children as prey and attack them under certain triggering behavior. That conclusion is based on my own and other related studies of pit bulls attacking children. Again, realize we have hundreds and hundreds of cases here in the USA, way surpassing every other part in the world. Therefore, the sample of a survey is much greater than other countries, thus offering us more data for analysis and conclusions.

By the way Mick, we are talking here, not arguing.

[Mick Trainer]

Then in your follow up reply you categorically deny the possibility of a dog, triggered by prey drive, attacking a child I didn't catagorically deny anything. As it says in my first responce I find it very rare to find a dog that has actually attacked a child in prey. I later said in the cases I have researched and been involved in that I did not believe one of these dogs actually did this. Never did I say it could not happen simply that I have not seen it and I believe it to be extremely rare. If your research and involvment in cases tells you otherwise I am in no position to say otherwise.

So I don't get it. You said it may happen but then you basically said it couldn’t happen Like I said never said it can't happen just don't think it happens often.

. However, dog-aggressive dogs, high in prey drive, may see small children as prey and attack them under certain triggering behavior Certainly they may.

Mick.

[Judi W]

I am not competent to get into all this technical portion of the discussion, but I would like to comment on Trish's basic posit.

" what is the most convincing arguement that you have to prove the following statement:

"Dog : Dog Aggression has NOTHING to do with Dog : Human Aggression."

So, I am a simple person. There is no convincing arguement for this. One does not determine the other nor does one exclude the other. "my dog is not dangerous because it only tries to kill other dogs" just won't wash. A dog can be dog aggressive AND people aggressive. A dog that is normally not people aggressive but is dog aggressive can by misdirection, do terrible injury to a person during the course of a dog fight simply by misdirection. Since this question was also connected to the Rottweiler breed with the statement about putting titles on the dog, etc. I am visualizing a dog that is highly aggressive towards other dogs, but should be considered benign to people because they are not the same.

Within the Rottweiler breed, a dog that shows such a high aggression towards other dogs is worthless as a working dog and should be quite penalized for such. It shows a lack of emotional control. In real life, such a dog endangers people who would attempt to break up fights (many owners can attest to that) and the owners of other dogs that they are attempting to defend. Because one may or may not find that such a dog would go after a child, that dog still does not belong out of the kennel or off the property.

[cryjay]

Wow Trish, this thread has been a great read! Mick and German I thoroughly enjoyed reading what you both had to write

[2rotties2luv]

Originally Posted by Karlan

The father had put the infant down (for a nap) on the floor in the master bedroom with a blanket and pillows all around it and left. The Pitt got into the room, saw the baby, smelled it and licked it and left.

After spending the last few years teaching dog safety to children and working to prevent BSL in New York, I just HAD to comment on this post.


RULE # 1 : NEVER, NEVER EVER LEAVE A DOG ALONE WITH AN INFANT OR SMALL CHILD, NO MATTER HOW WELL BEHAVED THE DOG SEEMS TO BE
The incident described above was a disaster waiting to happen - thank God it didn't!!

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by 2rotties2luv

After spending the last few years teaching dog safety to children and working to prevent BSL in New York, I just HAD to comment on this post.


RULE # 1 : NEVER, NEVER EVER LEAVE A DOG ALONE WITH AN INFANT OR SMALL CHILD, NO MATTER HOW WELL BEHAVED THE DOG SEEMS TO BE!!

The incident described above was a disaster waiting to happen - thank God it didn't!!

The dogs in question attacked and killed a little dog and not a human child. We were talking about the possibility that dog-aggression, combined with high prey drive, may trigger an attack to a small child. Let us get it straight and avoid confusions.