Security or insecurity? You pick one!

[SABELLESMOM]

I truly appreciate the fact that Rotties want to please their owners. Yes, trainability and intellegence rank very highly. I love their personality and their drive and work ethic. I'm rather artistic at heart and one of the most phenominal things to me about a Rottweiler is also the pure physical beauty of a well put together conformationally correct, healthy Rottweiler.

I am perhaps as passionate about their absolute beauty as I am with the rest of the package. Others of you are passionate about the drive and workability aspect. That's great. It works for you. But I get a bit tired of people who imply those who choose to show merely have beauty queens, and runway models.

Look at conformation for a second. It takes much effort and time to train a dog. To start, you have to have a dog worthy of showing. To those who haven't tried it please consider how hard it is to have the dog maintain ring personality, and facial expression while still showing off each of it's assets. It's pretty tricky to get a dog put reach into their trot everytime. And you are mistaken if you think the dog HAS to hold perfectly still for the mouth and body exam. The judges are aware the dog, as part of it's breeding may not be 100% in favor of it. They can be reluctant, but not dangerous or vicious. I don't see anything being "bred out of the dog", here. To those of you who think this isn't working the dog, lets just agree to disagree on that one.

I seem to get this constant nagging impression that it's almost part of eligibility and initiation for protection/guarding and Schutzhund lovers to downplay the role of conformation. Like I said...."another beauty queen." Well think what you like then.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by SABELLESMOM

II don't see anything being "bred out of the dog", here. To those of you who think this isn't working the dog, lets just agree to disagree on that one.

I seem to get this constant nagging impression that it's almost part of eligibility and initiation for protection/guarding and Schutzhund lovers to downplay the role of conformation. Like I said...."another beauty queen." Well think what you like then.

no one downplays anything,, the point is if you cant see that breeding dogs for show only waters down the breed then you cant see!! the same would hold true if you bred for work and not cared that the dog was correct in apperance and health.. either way this ruins the breeding... and no showing does not work or is working for the rottweiler because it is not class specific as you can see every recognized breed shows in the conformation ring this is a task that any dog can do do the breed a favour and dont breed any dog you have until you can see the total picture

[SABELLESMOM]

Originally Posted by lblax

the point is if you cant see that breeding dogs for show only waters down the breed then you cant see!!

<sigh> Show me where I ever said anything other than: They should "have it all?" a "complete package?" Haven't I said time and time again that BOTH were needed?

I'm fairly certain said I am passionate about their beauty AS WELL AS the rest of the package, did I not? When did I ever say I promoted dogs for show only? I didn't.

[Vista]

Please don't turn a good discussion down a bad road. Discuss the issues, not each other.

[damp]

Originally Posted by SABELLESMOM

Sorry Larry. I don't have to PROVE working capabilities to you or anyone else to know that she does indeed HAVE a strong work ethic. I know. I probably didn't mention I also have done obedience and agility? I simply choose NOT to compete in those venues. I LIKE conformation. It suits us both.

Nothing wrong with a beautiful Rottweiler … if it also comes up the other parts as described in the standard.

If all, who claim their dogs are so brave, prove it in the working fields. Just take your dog out on the field and it will show all it’s potential. NO training. (Wonder why I have spent so many training hours every day, every week and years!)

If the Rottweiler has what it takes by nature, just because it’s a Rottweiler… go for the proof. That won’t be a big deal??? Piece of cake???

Most of the working dog’s people really value a beautiful dog too. We don’t hesitate from beauty. (Beauty also comes from the inside, the heart. The way a dog works can be beauty in itself)

[Judy Chrusch]

As most know, I have a show dog too and I also stated that the beauty was the whole package and I also said that it would take a very SOUND dog to be able to put up with a stranger going over their body. I don't know, I guess I'm missing something here with how people view a rottweiler that is a show dog and that it waters down the breed. Sorry but I can't make sense of this.

If any of us had the TRUE Rottweiler as you put it, then very few of us would be able to deal with that bc most of us wouldn't be equipped to own such a dog. Perhaps people who feel this way don't have the correct rottweiler in the
first place and that is NO dig to anyone here or anyone who has posted and again,I say the WHOLE package. In addition to the working end of the breed, IMO showing them is an added bonus, sorry, just how I feel. This topic could go on and on and I am by no means offended but some of the comments are just a bit over the edge.

We have this breed for many reasons and those reasons differ from person to person. Why can't we just enjoy this beautiful, intelligent breed for who they are and what they are. In addition to Czar and his accomplishments he also is my best friend and thrives on the love and attention he's given. He has done what he was bred to do and though I would have liked to get more titles on him we can't :( . His health and wellbeing comes first and foremost and we do what we can with what we have.

There's no argument with what's been said about the breed but I do not believe it is a bad thing or bad for the breed to show them.

Judy

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Judy Chrusch

I guess I'm missing something here with how people view a rottweiler that is a show dog and that it waters down the breed. Sorry but I can't make sense of this.

but I do not believe it is a bad thing or bad for the breed to show them.

Judy

1s it is not a bad thing to show the dog!!!! the dogs before breeding must be proven in the conformation ring whether it be akc or a breed clubs conformation ring or determined by the breed wardens such as the usa club ......

let me explain to you how the showing and breeding concept waters down the breed....and for the average joe that shows for fun this may not necsaryly be true. showing is a big money big buisness just like working venues there is one differance a breeder that is breeding for working ability strives for that but also even though the dogs may not have many show titles they still have to be correct to the standard and health wize or you simply cant sell the dogs..... on the other hand you have the big time show breeders there dogs have many show titles and they continually breed(not all breeders) for the perfect dog in looks without regard to its working abilitie or courage.... lets use your dog as an example lets say you have done nothing but show czar since he was a pup and he has done extreamly well in the show ring and his lines have a strong working lineage of dogs.....many sch titles ipo all through his lines.... now lets say next years westminster winner is a rott.. this female is gorgeous and every dog in her lines is of super show dogs every one.... even though your dog comes from sch lines since you have only shown him we do not know whether he could do the work or not..,. now the wesminster winner with no working titles in her background more than likely would run off the feild if confronted by a helper... as this scenario continues the you have decided since you are proud of czar you would like to breed him and the people of the wesminster winner has contacted you to use him as a stud...... if you were of the mind set of the proffessional show person this would look like a very prestigious offer and if you were of the mind set that showing not only proved confirmation but also because he did well in the show ring proved that he could work you would breed these dogs and what would be the result of taking a strickly show line dog and breeding it to your dog with good working plus correct to the standard... the result would be a litter off pretty pups that are even less likely to do the actuall breed specific work... and then each breeding from these pups down the road even waters it down more... so hopefully this helps you understand how thinking that showing is working and breeding show dog to showdog is really hurting the breed

[LavenderRott]

Now I am a little confused.

While we expect our dogs to protect and defend, aren't we teaching them at a young age that we decide who is a friend and who is not?

It seems to me that in the conformation ring, we allow the judge to go over the dog, thus telling the dog that this is a friend, and not someone we need to be defended against.

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by SABELLESMOM

I am perhaps as passionate about their absolute beauty as I am with the rest of the package. Others of you are passionate about the drive and workability aspect. That's great. It works for you. But I get a bit tired of people who imply those who choose to show merely have beauty queens, and runway models.

The history of the rottweiler is that of a working dog. That's what the breed, traditionally, was and suppose to be bred for. Showing in the ring became popular in the early 1900's prior to that it was all about work ability. The fact remains that the outstanding characteristics of the breed have always been the unique working traits that allow the well-bred rottweiler to perform a variety of tasks. That's what makes the true rottweiler so outstanding. Breeding only with conformation beauty in mind, while disregarding the working traits of the rottweiler, is producing half-a-dog... The total rottweiler comes from a sum of factors, not the looks in itself ;)

Having said all of the above, I don't mind at all that you show your dogs, but let us not mistake that conformation-beauty is a top priority, as in more important than the correct temperament, drives, nerves, working traits and so forth

[Judy Chrusch]

JMO but that's where trust comes in and they do know the difference bc for one thing they don't need to feel threatened in anyway and though Czar had other issues at times, I found it quite amazing that he allowed what is done in the ring, which AGAIN, comes back to the all around correct rottweiler tempermant as far as being confident. A SOUND rottweiler should and will let you do what is expected in the ring and some how, some way, they know the difference, therefore there is no need to get on the defense or feel the need to protect. Czar had a trusting relationship with the handler and they worked together as they all do and must. Our dogs should trust our judgement and they must know that we would not put them in an compromising situation. It's so difficult to put into words but what threat is a judge and again, your dog is trusting you and your judgement in whatever you do.

Judy

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by LavenderRott

Now I am a little confused.

While we expect our dogs to protect and defend, aren't we teaching them at a young age that we decide who is a friend and who is not?

It seems to me that in the conformation ring, we allow the judge to go over the dog, thus telling the dog that this is a friend, and not someone we need to be defended against.

The problem lies in the rules of AKC about judging dog breeds. They basically make no distinction between groups (i.e. toy vs. working) by utilizing "all-rounders" judges (meaning: judges that assess all breeds, and not breed specific judges).

AKC also demands the unnecessary touching of dogs (which is too invasive, the grabbing makes no sense). It's like those judges have some special sensors in their hands that detect what is invisible to their eyes

Bear in mind, too, that AKC show judges evaluate only conformation, and they could care less for the working traits of the individual breed, since the latter are not being trialed or tested at all. Basically, AKC judges are only looking for that one beautiful dog (in their eyes, of course), and not which dog meets all the desired standards of the breed.

By the way, when a rottweiler is conditioned and taught to allow strangers to such unnecessary touching and intrusive manipulation, the dog's defense drive (if it has it) will be reduced to a level of confidence that makes the dog an ineffective guard dog.

[Jango]

Interesting points by all. Now I am curious as to what is considered WORKING a rottie. I want to train my dog in obedience (Have started already) want to do agility someday, but I also would love for him to be a threapy dog, rescue dog etc. My big question and maybe I missed it from my limited knowledge, is don't you have to have some or all of these skills to learn the other. Ex: You dog has to be obedience trained to be a therepy dog or bomb dog etc. etc. I would live to see a list of working type classes offered. Just curious.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Jango

Interesting points by all. Now I am curious as to what is considered WORKING a rottie. I want to train my dog in obedience (Have started already) want to do agility someday, but I also would love for him to be a threapy dog, rescue dog etc. My big question and maybe I missed it from my limited knowledge, is don't you have to have some or all of these skills to learn the other. Ex: You dog has to be obedience trained to be a therepy dog or bomb dog etc. etc. I would live to see a list of working type classes offered. Just curious.

in general any thing you do such as agilitiy ---obed.--- therapy is giving the dog a job so you can consider that working... our discusion has been talking about working the dog in specifics to prove its breed specific and working dog classification temparemants and drives.... what kind of work are you interested in??? post that and we can point you in right direction to find training.... or better yet star a thread with all your questions and you'll get some good direction

[Shawna M.]

Nope. Trainability is not a given. It all depends on what is bred in the individual rottweiler. The character, temperament, drives, nerves, etc. are not a "sure thing" inherited by all rottweilers, therefore, since not all rottweilers are bred equally, consequently, not all rottweilers have the same working abilities. That's why you may find some viciously aggressive rottweilers, others are shy-timid, or overly friendly, fearful biters, and so forth

Okay I understand what you're trying to say but this would only hold true if the ONLY thing Rottweilers were bred for was protection work. They aren't JUST protection dogs and NEVER have been. As a matter of fact it's the people who try to train their dogs to be protection dogs and fail that create the bad publicity of a Rottweiler gone "wild." If we all believed that Rottweilers were only meant to have so they could "attack the bad guys" then all those other non-dog people who say Rottweilers should be banned would be right. MOST of us enjoy our dogs for other reasons then for the fact that they can take a man down at a hundred yards... While I do admire this capability in the dogs, it shouldn't be their only one. If it was then having a Rottweiler would be the same as having a gun. Not Good. And if you think people who breed dogs aren't concerned about trying to prevent aggressive, timid, shy or fearful dogs, then take a look at a dog show sometime. Dogs with these traits simply do not win, if you see them at all. Breeders are concerned with temperment and conformation, the same things that work in the ring will help to produce a good working dog.

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by Shawna M.

Okay I understand what you're trying to say but this would only hold true if the ONLY thing Rottweilers were bred for was protection work. They aren't JUST protection dogs and NEVER have been.

Nope! Trainability applies in general, not only to protection. Just because you have a rottweiler it doesn't mean that you automatically have a highly trainable dog in any field. Not all. It all depends on the genetic make-up of the individual dog. Dogs have bred in unique genetic traits that make them candidates for different types of work. Moroever, you find easy to train dogs, not so easy to train dogs, and even untrainable dogs too. Also, it appears to be a huge misunderstanding about my statements concerning the protection and guarding abilities of the rottweiler. I have not state that rottweilers are just protection dogs. I have stated though that rottweilers are working dogs, capable of performing different tasks, such as herding, scent discrimination, therapy service, tracking, police and military service, home guarding, bodyguarding, and so forth. However, is an undeniable fact that the history of the rottweiler distinguishes the breed as a superb guard dog, which is sufficiently proven and documented.

Originally Posted by Shawna M.

As a matter of fact it's the people who try to train their dogs to be protection dogs and fail that create the bad publicity of a Rottweiler gone "wild." If we all believed that Rottweilers were only meant to have so they could "attack the bad guys" then all those other non-dog people who say Rottweilers should be banned would be right.

The above is a common misconception among the public in general.

First, the truth is that the majority of dog owners do not attempt to train their dogs in protection; instead, they just (wrongly) trust their dogs' "natural instincts". Sadly enough, some dog owners that pretend to know about protection and guard dog training, fail miserably in attempting to train their dogs, due to their total lack of knowledge in the subject. For instance, a lot ignorant people believe in no socializing their dogs to make them distrustful of humans. Other idiots think that if you give a dog raw meat with gunpowder it makes the dog aggressive (all they are accomplishing is painfully destroy the dog's stomach lining!). You find the ones that threaten their dogs until the dog, out of sheer fear, responds to the threat with fearful aggression; and so forth and so on. The truth is: rottweilers going "wild" come, in most cases, from dogs with poor temperaments, weak nerves, improper upbringing, lack of socialization, etc. And not from dogs that meet the desired standards of the breed. Where those objectionable dogs come from? From wanton breeding by unethical or ignorant breeders, and from irresponsible or ignorant dog owners.

Second, for a dog to qualify to be protection/guard trained, the dog MUST meet the following criteria:

1. Have the correct temperament of the breed, being sound of mind.
2. Have steady nerves, not nervy or overly confidant
3. Have the necessary balance of drives, prey and defense
4. Have been extensively socialized, so the dog is comfortable around humans and he doesn't spook about easily.
5. Have been fully trained in obedience-control, where the dog responds without hesitation to all commands.

The combination of all the above factors makes a protection dog the safest dog around people. You see? A well-bred rottweiler, trained in protection, can be sociable yet protective. In the other hand, dogs with temperament issues, poor nerves, untrained, and so forth, can be downright dangerous!

So which are the dogs that give bad publicity to the rottweiler? Easy answer: dogs from irresponsible-ignorant breeders and dog owners... Plain and simple ;)

Originally Posted by Shawna M.

Breeders are concerned with temperment and conformation, the same things that work in the ring will help to produce a good working dog.

I am sorry, but you cannot compare apples with oranges. Working fields are not to be confused with show rings. And show dogs do not automatically qualify to be working dogs, albeit some do ;)