Security or insecurity? You pick one!

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by LORHEL

I do believe personally that they are WORKING when they are in the ring, as well or any other activity that requires effort on their part. It might not be as important as security, and I know your entire post is based on that because that is your area of expertise.

Learning how to walk around the show ring and standstill for a judge's examination is not considered, in the working field, as work. That's how the show dog and the working dog are differentiated. So much so, than AKC has show competitions and working trials, thus separating each other field from its purposes ;)

Originally Posted by LORHEL

I also can see where you are coming from about being in the ring, and the characteristics of the rottweiler (being aloof to strangers, etc.) being a downfall, however, I think if a handler and dog are one with each other so to speak, and they have a understanding of what they are there to do, then why not show the dog. The dog can be trained to understand the judge doing an handling/exam is all part of the process and accept it. Rather than assume the person is going to harm them by opening their mouth, etc....

I disagree. Once the dog is conditioned to accept any stranger to manipulate him all over his body, including the opening of the mouth to check the teeth (you see? the dog doesn't know the stranger is a judge) , then the level of confidence and trust of the dog becomes so high than it takes way too much to stimulate the dog to respond to a potential threat (over confidence around humans), thus reducing the protection and guard drives to undesirable levels. You said it yourself: the rottweiler is expected to be somewhat wary of strangers, even aloof, reacting alert to his surroundings, etc... Does that fit the description of an AKC show dog?

Originally Posted by LORHEL

I obviously have a very low drive rottweiler. She is a rescue so I don't know her heritage. What I do know is she possesses, strength, character, protectiveness (I don't know if she would protect me or not, I just accept it for whatever it is) and has a sound temperament. For me personally, this works. No way could I handle a dog that was high drive, and had to be constantly worked. At least not yet, I am still learning every day.

First, a dog does not have to come from a "royal" lineage to be protective. I have first-hand knowledge of rescued rottweilers excelling as security dogs. Second, do not confuse high drive with hyper-behavior. Drive is a force that motivates a dog to perform a task the best he can (or is conditioned to, by the handler exploiting the dog’s drive). It does not mean the dog is all fired-up, going up and down, asking you to work constantly. However, rottweilers enjoy working everyday for a short time; for instance: by retrieving a dumbbell and bring it up to his handler, sit in front of him and drop it off on command. Trust me, a dog can learn that so easy. Or, a rottweiler works when he barks aggressively at someone peeking through your house window or over the property’s fence, thus alerting his pack of the proximity of a stranger to the pack's territory; you tell him: "Good boy! Good boy!" and praise him for it. You dog will know he is pleasing you by performing his watchdog duty... Like I said in an above reply: there are a wide variety of activities for a dog, from the basic to intermediate to the advanced. You have choices and it doesn’t take much either ;)

Originally Posted by LORHEL

I don't think you are here to argue, I think you can definitely have some heated conversations, but then if we didn't discuss things, and share viewpoints, it would be pretty boring.

I am not discussing viewpoints; I am exposing and debating documented-recorded facts ignored by some people. Therefore, I can prove my points ;)

[JoJo]

This is just my opinion, but I have to agree with Larry and German. Todays rottweilers are watered down. I think that the majority of us on this board couldn't handle a "true rottweiler" (myself included) just because we don't have the experiance. Not saying that we couldn't learn from the right teacher! The rottie isn't being bred today to be "all it should be". That's why we always have strife amoung the "working" people vs. the "show people". I think if breeders today take in count of the whole dog, they could breed to have the best of both worlds and the rottie will come full circle.

JoJo

[SABELLESMOM]

Something seems to be sadly missing from this discussion, German. And while I can agree with some of what was said, you also left a few things out. Rottweilers are certainly a working breed and bred with the intention of being confident and able to think on their own. That part you didn't mention is they worked elsewhere besides simply guarding/security. They also worked as drover dogs. While I agree that entails an aspect of guarding/ security, it is also more. In fact isn't it the original work for this breed?

I don't see too many droving venues out there amidst all the Schutzhund I, II and III's, or Obedience, or Agility, Or yes, even Conformation. So are we missing something? Should we be doing that as well?

I understand your intent and passion for Schutzhund. My dog comes with several Sch's in her line. The fact that I enjoy and prefer Conformation does not mean I have a lesser dog necessarily. I have what I want. Just understand that most of us who do something other than Sch, can be just as passionate about what we do. To say Conformation is not "working" is unfair. I also don't do any droving, but that doesn't mean my dog is a weak link.

Have you done conformation? Have you tried it? I can honestly say I haven't tried Sch. I'm not saying I'd never try it. But of all the venues available, is holds the least interest for me, at this time.

[LORHEL]

I totally agree with the watered-down assessment of many rottweilers today.

Larry, you are right on also, ... see the reason I posted is because I knew anything I am not too knowledgeable on will be picked apart, and corrected. I mean this in a good way, this is how knowledge and facts come out.

I'm no expert just trying to ask simple questions. ;)

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by SABELLESMOM

Something seems to be sadly missing from this discussion, German. And while I can agree with some of what was said, you also left a few things out. Rottweilers are certainly a working breed and bred with the intention of being confident and able to think on their own. That part you didn't mention is they worked elsewhere besides simply guarding/security. They also worked as drover dogs. While I agree that entails an aspect of guarding/ security, it is also more. In fact isn't it the original work for this breed?

I advocate working in general, not just protection work. If a rottweiler is bred to herd, that's fine with me. If a rottweiler can do therapy service, I think is great. If a rottweiler can detect explosives, that's excellent. I am all for exploiting the individual working abilities for what the dog is bred for. However, there is a common misconception about guard dogs, as if such dogs are bad because they bite. Well, that simply is not true. Guard dogs perform security duties and for a dog to be able to guard, the dog must have the correct temperament typical of the breed, solid nerves and high drives. Trust me, it does not mean a "biting machine but a protective companion dog;) Nevertheless, this working abilities (protect and guard) are being diluted out of the breed due to improper breeding practices and rearing. So I feel compelled to de-demonized the guard dog image by spreading facts and dispelling the many myths and wrong notions about the subject of protection and guard dog training. [b]I truly believe that a well-bred rottweiler should have inherited a strong desire to protect his family pack and territory.[b] What's wrong with owning a dog for security purposes? Nothing!

Originally Posted by SABELLESMOM

I understand your intent and passion for Schutzhund...

I am not a schuzthund competitor. I am a schutzhund fan. I work my dogs in advanced obedience, agility and protection/guard training ;) :)

Originally Posted by SABELLESMOM

Have you done conformation? Have you tried it? I can honestly say I haven't tried Sch. I'm not saying I'd never try it. But of all the venues available, is holds the least interest for me, at this time.

No. I personally don't care much for the show ring, albeit there is nothing wrong with those who choose to show dogs. I don't consider showing a dog as working though. I believe working dogs are the ones doing therapy service, herding, tracking, police patrol, scent detection, agility, weight-pulling, obedience trials, and so forth. Bear in mind that you can give your dog a job and work him as a companion dog in your home too. You don't have to show-off anywhere to work your dog. It can be quite private. However, rottweilers that work are happier than those that do nothing or little... You better believe it ;)

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by LORHEL

I totally agree with the watered-down assessment of many rottweilers today.

Larry, you are right on also, ... see the reason I posted is because I knew anything I am not too knowledgeable on will be picked apart, and corrected. I mean this in a good way, this is how knowledge and facts come out.

I'm no expert just trying to ask simple questions. ;)

We all learn from each other. Teaching methods differ from individual to individual. I am not the "sweet with cherry-on-top" kind of person. I am the combative type, so I may come accross a bit harsh sometimes... However I have nothing but good intentions in sharing my knowledge and experience with all of you... Just give me break! ;) :)

[lblax]

Originally Posted by SABELLESMOM

IThe fact that I enjoy and prefer Conformation does not mean I have a lesser dog necessarily. I have what I want. Just understand that most of us who do something other than Sch, can be just as passionate about what we do. To say Conformation is not "working" is unfair. I also don't do any droving, but that doesn't mean my dog is a weak link.

Have you done conformation? Have you tried it? I can honestly say I haven't tried Sch. I'm not saying I'd never try it. But of all the venues available, is holds the least interest for me, at this time.

conformation is not working because dogs do well in shows that have absolutly no work ethic at all.... does the fact that you enjoy confermation with your dog make it a lesser dog?? absolutly not it makes it the perfect dog for you..... what would make your dog a weak link would be if you bred it without proving that it has working capabilities or the temparmant of a true rott.

[SABELLESMOM]

Originally Posted by lblax

conformation is not working because dogs do well in shows that have absolutly no work ethic at all.... does the fact that you enjoy confermation with your dog make it a lesser dog?? absolutly not it makes it the perfect dog for you..... what would make your dog a weak link would be if you bred it without proving that it has working capabilities or the temparmant of a true rott.

Sorry Larry. I don't have to PROVE working capabilities to you or anyone else to know that she does indeed HAVE a strong work ethic. I know. I probably didn't mention I also have done obedience and agility? I simply choose NOT to compete in those venues. I LIKE conformation. It suits us both.

That asside: Dogs that are bred should "have it all," so to speak. To have the right attitude, temperament, work ethic, soundness, health certifications, etc. is also probably "not enough." They also need to be conformationally correct or there would eventually be a change in the breed physically. Who wants to loose that? Is that not equally important?

When we maintain the correct size, proportions, head style(s), coloration, markings, aren't we preserving beauty? Preventing hip dysplasia? Maintaining health? To say one is more important than the other is picking holes in ourselves. We need both to preserve 1) the beauty and health, and 2), the working capabilities of the Rottweiler.

It would be nice if we all had time enough and money to have titles at both ends, wouldn't it? Perhaps it would even be ideal. I work full time. So I choose what I enjoy most.

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by SABELLESMOM

It would be nice if we all had time enough and money to have titles at both ends, wouldn't it? Perhaps it would even be ideal. I work full time. So I choose what I enjoy most.

I don't believe that every rottweiler owner has an ethical obligation to compete in the show ring and/or working fields to fulfill the dream of the total rottweiler. But this my take on this issue:

1. Those who breed for the preservation of the true rottweiler, according to the desired standards of the breed, should do so with that in mind: working abilities and conformation. Consequently, ideally, producing dogs within expectations. And they don't have to be perfect conformation dogs, or super working dogs, but dogs with the right temperament (neither vicious nor shy), high in prey drive (necessary for obedience and working fields), defense drive (to protect the family pack and territory), guard drive (to alert the pack of potential dangers), good nerves (not too excitable, not over confident, but alert and responsive), and physical function ability (enabling the dog to do what is expected to do)... THAT, to me, is a beautiful dog ;)

2. Average dog owners (the majority) should not breed their dogs, because lacking the fundamental knowledge of how to breed creates the opposite: undesirable dogs, which end-up polluting the genetic pool of the breed. Thus, contributing to the downfall of the rottweiler. Breeding is science and art, and not as simple as: "My stud is gorgeous and your bitch can do" or viceversa. In fact, most dog owners are fixated on the stud as if it were more important that the bitch When the truth is, the bitch is more important in the breeding, due to the fact that not only she offers a 50% share of the genes but the bitch will have a profound influence during the puppies first 7 to 8 weeks of life, as far as survival skills and behavior is concerned (some guys think that "most" is inherited from "daddy," wrong!).

3. So, if you do not breed and do not have the time and commitment to work and/or show in sanctioned official events, then enjoy your dog at a private level. What I am talking about? Well get a rottweiler keeping in mind what the breed can do, and adapt his potential working abilities to your lifestyle, according to what you are looking for and realistically your dog may do. At the very least you have to train your dog in basic obedience, but once you accomplished this responsibility don't stop there! Keep going. You can teach your dog more advanced drills. You can set-up a fun agility course. You can choose an activity where your dog is eager and willing to please you, and so forth and so on. Don't get a dog to keep him neglected some place; neither get a dog to spoil him like a brat child. Rescued dogs often come with outstanding abilities unexploited by previous owners. As a matter of fact, some of those rescued dogs have impressive pedigrees, albeit in order to have a great companion dog "royal" lineage is not essential.

Last, if your rottweiler guards and protect be very proud! There is nothing wrong with it, just be a responsible dog owner ;)

[lblax]

Originally Posted by SABELLESMOM

I don't have to PROVE working capabilities to you or anyone else to know that she does indeed HAVE a strong work ethic. I know. I probably didn't mention I also have done obedience and agility? I simply choose NOT to compete in those venues. I LIKE conformation. It suits us both.

It would be nice if we all had time enough and money to have titles at both ends, wouldn't it? Perhaps it would even be ideal. I work full time. So I choose what I enjoy most.

im glad you like conformation and if your idea of working your dog was throwing a ball for 10 minutes a day i would applaud that also, your happy youre dogs happy that is great and i am not cutting you our your dog down.... but dont breed her!(not that you have plans to im not insinuating that)
by doing conformation obediance and agility you have only proven than youre dog fits the standard and that it can perform the work that any lab , goldie or border collie and the rott should have working titles along with confermation titles before it is breed to prove that it has the temparmant and courage that it should have.. this is what waters down the rottweiler.. look what over the year breeding for show and mixing show lines in to water down good gsd have done to that breed..... usa has a good program to help the breeding you prove your gsd health --working titles----and they kore klass your confermation as yearlt 1-2-3 or for life then the dog and pups can be usa clup sanctioned litters .... it is a start

[SABELLESMOM]

Originally Posted by German Vanegas

I believe working dogs are the ones doing therapy service, herding, tracking, police patrol, scent detection, agility, weight-pulling, obedience trials, and so forth. Bear in mind that you can give your dog a job and work him as a companion dog in your home too. You don't have to show-off anywhere to work your dog. It can be quite private. However, rottweilers that work are happier than those that do nothing or little... You better believe it ;)

Fine. And I think occupied, busy, or otherwise working dogs are happier overall. Personally, I like hiking. I don't mean up incredibly steep slopes, just around and about the northeast countryside. :D I'm beginning to think she'd be great at scent detection. But that's besides the point.

I should mention, I have no current plans to breed my bitch. I would never consider doing so without enlisting my breeder hands controling the matter. I enterred the discussion to bring out the point that conformation, also has a role in making a great Rottweiler. It's the whole package. Not just the attitude and work ethic, which I believe my dog has.

And Larry, if the GSD world has finally come up with a program that will indeed improve breeding, I can applaud that! And if you like thinking my dog is no better than a Lab, Golden or Border Collie, go right ahead. My head aches deciphering your logic there.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by SABELLESMOM

And if you like thinking my dog is no better than a Lab, Golden or Border Collie, go right ahead. My head aches deciphering your logic there.

it always amazes me when trying to explain something to some one that they instantly turn it around as a slam against their dog like you have ,when in reality it is far from it!! (because you said your dog posseses good work ethic) the statemant was made that by doing only conformation--agility--obediance you have not proven that your dog has the work ethic or courage that a rott should have... because you have proven nothing more than any other golden---lab or border collie as they accel at the above mentioned tasks, and if these dogs were to compete in the temparment and courage tests and other venues that a well bred rott should be able to do,, they if bred correctly will fail.. i personally think that it is terrific that you do confermation and agility but i will hold by my statemant that regardless how many show wins a dog has or agiliity titles one has (even though i look in awe at these people and there dogs for there acomplishmants) when it comes to the rest of the dogs traits, these dogs could be the furthest possible example of a true rott imaginable and if bred just further waters down the breed. does this mean that we think you should run out and join a schutzhund club or have your dog personall protection trained... no it doesnt because you are happy with things just the way they are.. but if you ever planed to breed then yes you should for the bettermant of the breed

[Shawna M.]

Hey guys,
I know you guys love your Rotties, I do too, but isn't the whole point of your discussion trainability? Isn't that the great thing about Rottweiler's, that they will do whatever you ask of them? If you tell your Rottie to be a teddybear because you have kids or whatever reason, they'll do it. However if you like that your dog will warn people off he will see your positive response and keep growling. My dogs will guard if told to, and they won't go cuddling with a stranger till they get the okay from me, but I don't have to worry about someone walking into the yard and loosing a leg either. On the other hand, I have friends who have their Labrador Retriever trained to guard. I know that dogs have natural instincts and that in some breeds these instincts are reinforced but you can train a dog to go against his instincts, and Rottweilers will do anything to make their owners happy. Isn't that how you get Rotties that show well?

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Shawna M.

Hey guys,
I know you guys love your Rotties, I do too, but isn't the whole point of your discussion trainability? ?

no its about rottweilers today not being what they should be and why and why practices should be followed to ensure that you will get a true rott.

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by Shawna M.

Hey guys,
I know you guys love your Rotties, I do too, but isn't the whole point of your discussion trainability? Isn't that the great thing about Rottweiler's, that they will do whatever you ask of them? If you tell your Rottie to be a teddybear because you have kids or whatever reason, they'll do it. However if you like that your dog will warn people off he will see your positive response and keep growling.

Nope. Trainability is not a given. It all depends on what is bred in the individual rottweiler. The character, temperament, drives, nerves, etc. are not a "sure thing" inherited by all rottweilers, therefore, since not all rottweilers are bred equally, consequently, not all rottweilers have the same working abilities. That's why you may find some viciously aggressive rottweilers, others are shy-timid, or overly friendly, fearful biters, and so forth. Casual and wanton breeding are the casue of all this mess in the genetic pool of the breed.

NOTE: A dog's natural insticts are plain survival and you cannot rely on them ;)