Security or insecurity? You pick one!

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by Patty1231

Just a thought, but perhaps we've taken this too far. It's been said many times that not everyone should own a rottie. I chose a rottie because of it's inherent nature - beautiful, intelligent, strong, self-assured, loyal to its owners but aloof to strangers. If you want a dog that greets everyone like it's best friend, perhaps this breed (and similar breeds) are not what you should be looking for. Again, no argument intended here, just a new preception developing from this thread.

You appear to clearly understand the history and tradition of the rottweiler breed.

[jakesfostermom]

Thanks German - I'm with you now! Great discussion going on here...even with the individual passion several of us have about our chosen venues....just goes to show that this breed can be successful at just about anything it is trained to do - as long as proper/responsible breeding is taking place!

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by jakesfostermom

Thanks German - I'm with you now! Great discussion going on here...even with the individual passion several of us have about our chosen venues....just goes to show that this breed can be successful at just about anything it is trained to do - as long as proper/responsible breeding is taking place!

We are on the same "page" now ;) :)

[LynnS]

The light went on over here as well and I too appreciate the discussion.

[Karyn]

I have tremendously enjoyed reading this thread. It has been extremely informative and thought provoking. Thanks folks.

[FredAl]

Originally Posted by jakesfostermom

I am impressed with FredAl's post, particularly his reference to how AKC judges use like-kind methods of judging across the span of breeds, which is fundamentally wrong in itself, as each breed has its own standard - and just wanted to add one more comment to German - I did believe/understand from your post that your dog would show signs of aggression to a conformation judge, because that is a true working rottie in your opinion and would be acceptable. For those with therapy dogs, the complete reverse is true - these dogs (and there are LOTS of rotties doing therapy) MUST allow strangers to touch them, with complete obedience. Are you then saying that this type of working dog is also causing the breed to be lessened? I'm really not trying to argue - just continue the exchange of information, ideas, beliefs & opinions......I am relatively new to the rottie breed and find this all to be very interesting. My Boxers of old resemble none of the boxers I have met today! Likely for similar reasons. I will add that I am a little concerned that we all have and love a breed that has bad press everyday of the week, we're fighting breed banning, etc., and some of what has been written here would only reinforce the fear, in the eyes of people who don't understand the breed, but that's another topic for another day...

You brought up an excellent point there, JFM, and I would just like to share my experience with a special Rottweiler -- an extraordinary dog named Conrad -- that would help give the breed a better reputation.

I had a male Rottweiler I acquired from Germany as a young adult with no training (I like my dogs ‘green’ so I know whatever issues manifest are totally from my own doing). I got him for SchH and protection, which he did well. He saved my life in one incident and prevented a robbery on another.

I showed him in Sieger shows and he won a few V-1 ratings. He never won a Sieger title because, back then, we were competing against excellent famous Siegers like Graf vd Teufelsbrucke, Danjo vom Schwaiger Wappen, etc. – they were really a class above my dog.

When I decided to join a K9SAR team, Conrad willingly performed the exercises and did well. He knew when to perform air-scenting/trailing for K9SAR, or tracking for SchH, when to do search and rescue for SAR, or ‘search and destroy’ for SchH.

I just wanted to take Conrad’s abilities to the fullest and I tried every activity I can enjoy with my dog. I wasn’t ready to specialize; and he wasn’t either. I taught him some tricks and used him as a breed ambassador, taking him to elementary schools and Cub Scout meetings to teach responsible pet care and bite prevention. I changed a lot of the parents’ negative perceptions about the Rottweiler breed. And the kids loved Conrad, although most of them called him Carl (the book was very popular then).

I bought a large Radio Flyer type wagon from the Amish, put a bench on it and trained Conrad on cart pulling. I trained him to respond to rein control just like a horse. We gave dog cart rides for several community events and the kids would hug him and give him treats after they enjoyed the cart ride compliments of Conrad. The kids still referred to him as Carl, though.

Since I noticed that he loved children, I also used him for therapy work to help the sick children, and also the old.

Conrad knew what to do on each activity I took him to. Well, except one. We tried herding but he bit the sheep and our test was stopped. Oh well. We can’t do ‘em all.

People complimented me on his training. But I knew that it wasn’t my training. It was Conrad. Although he had all the right canine working traits and drives and canine whatever’s, it was the way he understood and properly performed the different, often conflicting, tasks we engaged in. I can only attribute it to his sensibility. He was a thinking dog.

When he was attacked by a Cocker Spaniel while he was pulling my 9-year-old daughter on the cart, he was just quickly lifting each leg that the Spaniel was going after. As soon as I gave him permission to fight back, he merely put his mouth around the Spaniel’s neck (just pinned it down), and released when the dog submitted.

Conrad was a special Rottweiler. And I’m sure there are others out there like him. Maybe we should try breeding for sensibility too.

[poohbearsmom]

And THAT, my friends, is a true rottweiler. CLAP CLAP CLAP.

Thanks, Fred, nice story. Good dog, Conrad. :D

[lblax]

Originally Posted by jakesfostermom

For those with therapy dogs, the complete reverse is true - these dogs (and there are LOTS of rotties doing therapy) MUST allow strangers to touch them, with complete obedience. Are you then saying that this type of working dog is also causing the breed to be lessened? I'm really not trying to argue - just continue the exchange of information, ideas, beliefs & opinions......I am relatively new to the rottie breed and find this all to be very interesting. My Boxers of old resemble none of the boxers I have met today! Likely for similar reasons. I will add that I am a little concerned that we all have and love a breed that has bad press everyday of the week, we're fighting breed banning, etc., and some of what has been written here would only reinforce the fear, in the eyes of people who don't understand the breed, but that's another topic for another day...

i know several schlll dogs that do therapy work therapy work take strong nerves without a doubt.. but a stable dog even a fully protection trained dog is freindly and safe a stable dog that has been socialized is not going to go off on kids or the elderly for the things that they do intentionally to the dog or by mistake such as falling on them and stepping on them whatever... although i trust that you put the dog in a comfartable setting such as you let the dog go to them and so forth and you would probably stop a child before he gave your dog a dental exam or the other end for that manner lol... i guess what im trying to say that any well socialized stable dog whether protection trained or not will accept friendly 2 way gestures .. but to to invade the privacy of a dog without it being fun or congenial will do exactly what german proffesses over time ..
and as far as seeing the breed in the papers this is just another example of not breeding the correct proven rotts..... dogs attack people out of mistreatmant----physical pain(from abuse or congentinal defects causing pain) lack of training in basic pack order by the owner---or by a provoked mistake by a handler or stranger-----and weak nerves... i would (never say never) say that getting bit by a healthy--- courageous----and trained rottweiller is slim and that the maulings of type are even slimmer..and the people that are afraid and fall into the media hype will always be afraid

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by FredAl

...I had a male Rottweiler I acquired from Germany as a young adult with no training (I like my dogs ‘green’ so I know whatever issues manifest are totally from my own doing). I got him for SchH and protection, which he did well. He saved my life in one incident and prevented a robbery on another...

...Since I noticed that he loved children, I also used him for therapy work to help the sick children, and also the old...

...Conrad knew what to do on each activity I took him to. Well, except one. We tried herding but he bit the sheep and our test was stopped. Oh well. We can’t do ‘em all...

...People complimented me on his training. But I knew that it wasn’t my training. It was Conrad. Although he had all the right canine working traits and drives and canine whatever’s, it was the way he understood and properly performed the different, often conflicting, tasks we engaged in. I can only attribute it to his sensibility. He was a thinking dog...

To protect and serve, what a great example of a rottweiler as a companion dog.

[jakesfostermom]

Fred - Conrad sounds like a magnificent dog! Thank you for sharing his story! Wouldn't it be a great day to see this breed returned to that type of package?!!!

[TrinityRun]

Originally Posted by Shawna M.

And if you think people who breed dogs aren't concerned about trying to prevent aggressive, timid, shy or fearful dogs, then take a look at a dog show sometime. Dogs with these traits simply do not win, if you see them at all.

Standing for examination is nothing more than training. A dog who would not naturally submit to being gone over can and does learn to tolerate it, if he doesn't he's out of the ring. There are *****plenty***** of dogs I can think of right now who have finished their championships who I know for a fact are nerve bags, and/or who are dangerously sharp and would nail you in a second with zero provocation. I've had my hands on these dogs. These same dogs have been bred ad nauseam. In fact, some of those names would probably make your jaw drop in disbelief because they are in many pedigrees.

People who tend to only show, show, show also tend to have a very narrow viewpoints. So often I find people compromising their morals and goals to suit the dog they currently own. These same people can be heard uttering they "know" their dog could do this, or do that if they simply wanted them to. BS. They've become unbalanced in their thinking at the expense of the breed, as evidenced in this discussion.

I find this to be an excellent subject and one in which I heavily concur with German. I believe it's so controversial because the views he has expressed here are really unpopular in this country. I see it all the time when asked about breeding and I don't presume to tell people what dogs to pick. I keep to myself. I breed for myself. Not for anyone else. I'm very concerned about the dogs I use in conformation and working ability. They have to prove to me they are correctly balanced Rottweilers in mind and body. If they aren't, they don't get bred. It's that simple. I refuse to compromise my beliefs and goals and cheat myself. I'd rather continue to swim against the current. ;)

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by TrinityRun

...People who tend to only show, show, show also tend to have a very narrow viewpoints. So often I find people compromising their morals and goals to suit the dog they currently own. These same people can be heard uttering they "know" their dog could do this, or do that if they simply wanted them to. BS. They've become unbalanced in their thinking at the expense of the breed, as evidenced in this discussion.

I find this to be an excellent subject and one in which I heavily concur with German. I believe it's so controversial because the views he has expressed here are really unpopular in this country. I see it all the time when asked about breeding and I don't presume to tell people what dogs to pick...

I know I am not alone in this issue. Thank you :)

[lblax]

since the thread has pretty much come full circle i thought i would post the usa schutzhund clubs breeding regulations ( for gsd) in order to get your dogs and litters usa registered.. while the regulations and program are not perfect if you go to this site http://germanshepherddog.com/breed/b...egulations.htm
and read this you can see 1st hand how if breed clubs were regeristing dogs instead of the akc our breeds would retain the all around quality's they should have and the breeds would slowly brought back to what they should be not 2 separate breeds(show---work) like the akc has forced us to be
and thank you all for the great week long debate :D

[eva247]

Whilst I have not read all the replies here (as there are so many)!!!! Can I just make the following comment - as a new rottie owner with a male pup of 10 weeks old I spent 2 years researching and deciding that a rottie was the right breed for me. I am now coming to the conclusion that you can read to much!!! :D
As many people can have their own opinions on the breed and what is expected, you must also appreciate that yes, they have certain bred characteristics however, it is down to the owner and how they train them.
I joined this site/forum to gain expert advice and to have acquaintances who have a similar 'love' for the breed to me as a 'newby' and it is sad to say that the more I read the more I start to feel panicky and insecure as to the breed I have taken on.
Just because a childs parents have been murderers or molesters does not mean that child will turn out the same way if they are loved, respected and trained - surely this is the same for a dog?
This is in no way critical to any of you as I have had some brilliant advice and motivation from many BUT, as a new rottie owner and without the first hand experience, like many I rely on what is being told/information by experienced owners/trainers. Sometimes, to give minimal, simple, straight and to the point information is more appropriate specifically when you have new owners reading as what you put down as experienced professionals could be detrimental to the breed and their upbringing!
Again this is no way negative but I remember when I had my daughter, everyone told me how you should bring her up, how you should feed, what you should do, and not to do, etc, etc..... to be honest - scared the hell out of me! and I tell you something, I was told not to feed her solids until she was 4 months old - she was a very big baby and I started her on at 7 weeks because instinct told me to - 8 years on she is fine :D I appreciate a dog is not a human being but same concept. On occasions when you are an expert and know so much - you need to relay that constructively and in small quantities so people such as myself can digest the information rather then crap themselves and shy away from it!!!
Once again - just constructive criticism from not soo experienced rottie owner and not directed to anyone!

[TrinityRun]

[quote=eva247]Just because a childs parents have been murderers or molesters does not mean that child will turn out the same way if they are loved, respected and trained - surely this is the same for a dog?)

A better example would be if there were mental problems in the family, such as schizophrenia - it's hereditary. A child who is abused carries a higher risk of becoming an abuser as an adult. Rottweilers should be bred with balance in mind. Too many people breed them without understanding what that means - they think they know but so many don't.

(This is in no way critical to any of you as I have had some brilliant advice and motivation from many BUT, as a new rottie owner and without the first hand experience, like many I rely on what is being told/information by experienced owners/trainers.)

As you should.

(Sometimes, to give minimal, simple, straight and to the point information is more appropriate specifically when you have new owners reading as what you put down as experienced professionals could be detrimental to the breed and their upbringing!)

Often it's not a question that can be answered in a few words. An experienced professional in this breed will take the time to explain in detail those answers because it is the misunderstanding that is detrimental to the breed. ;)

(Again this is no way negative but I remember when I had my daughter, everyone told me how you should bring her up, how you should feed, what you should do, and not to do, etc, etc..... to be honest - scared the hell out of me! and I tell you something, I was told not to feed her solids until she was 4 months old - she was a very big baby and I started her on at 7 weeks because instinct told me to - 8 years on she is fine )

That's great but here again, I believe the professional advice behind this theory is directly related to the babies underdeveloped digestive system at that early age. It's not designed for solids -it's designed for milk and that's all it typically can handle for the first few months.

(On occasions when you are an expert and know so much - you need to relay that constructively and in small quantities so people such as myself can digest the information rather then crap themselves and shy away from it!!!)

We all were new once. I chose not to "crap on myself" and read, read, reread and reread some more until I had it ingrained in my head. I asked questions and listened to the answers. If I didn't understand something, I probed further until I did but I never let anything that was over my head deter me from understanding it. I knew if I kept at it, I would come to understand full circle and this was before the Internet that so many newbies have available at their fingertips today. It made getting an education much more difficult and it also forced me to get out there and seek it instead of sitting back and just soaking it in.

Maybe there's a lesson in that?