HBO Documentary- Shelter Dogs

[Brooke&Ryan]

I totally agree Anne & I agree that the test is needed for people/dog's safety BUT on some of the Animal Cops shows it almost seems like they're trying to provoke the dog. I could understand using the fake hand to pet the dog or take the bowl away but in some of the tests I've seen the dog shoved with the fake hand & some other pretty harsh things. What is supposed to be done in these sorts of tests?? How many times are you supposed to attempt to pet the dog or take the bowl away?? I'm just curious. I don't have any experience with this at all....

Thanks!
:)
Brooke

[Karyn]

I saw that last night and I was horrified. She could not get the response she wanted by tormenting that cocker with just food so she upped the anti and the torture. She made me damned mad. I used to like her!

[godfreyc]

I think too much attention is being paid to volunteers and not enough to the losers who abandoned their dogs. They are the ones who deserve the contempt.

[jakesfostermom]

Godfreyc - I agree that the contempt should be aimed at the irresponsible owners, but for this discussion - I think this lady came off as in-humane and callous to the point of provoking and demanding that dogs be euthanized. I found myself feeling sorry for her staff, who showed more empathy and emotion and wanted to give these dogs a fair amount of time to be evaluated....This is just my opinion...
SabellesMom - we pulled a female rottie from the local SPCA shelter 10 days ago and at the very beginning of this program, she went ape - she was whining, barking and jumping at the baby gate. I also thought she could understand what these dogs were saying....the memories for her are way too fresh! It was almost painful for her to hear those dogs - I felt so sorry for her that I put her in the back room for the rest of the program....

[SABELLESMOM]

Thanks Jakesfostermom and Brooke. I guess I just have a sensitive girl. She wasn't frightened, just stressed and wanting me do something. Sable has never had a traumatic moment in her life. (Breeder to me) Maybe that's why it surprised me, although Digbee was upset at first, too. He was rescued nearly 10 years ago. Those "memories" had to be tense for your girl, poor thing.

[vshund]

I watched the HBO special last night. I thought it was very "feel good" insofar it showed a shelter with a very small population of dogs in a private boarding/spa kennel type situation.
None of the rescued dogs were purebreds that I could see. Two purebreds, a Cocker Spaniel and a Doberman were treated with extra caution.

Not surprisingly, the dog eventually becomes aggressive, at which time, Sternberg pulls out her own video camera and films the aggressive behavior. She then shows the tape to her staff to explain to them why she had to put the dog to sleep. No discussion about resource guarding behavior in dogs, or how dogs that exhibit this behavior can be trained. It appears she approached the temperament test expecting a specific outcome, and that she did whatever she could to achieve that outcome

Yes, absolutely. She set him for failure and then rigged the outcome. I'm appalled and still angry over that and it's been many hours since I watched it.

Sternberg gave him a pigs ear, a well known high value item! Then needlessly and relentlessly poked him while he was gnawing it, with a rubber hand on a stick. It was sick and stupid and abusive. After much prodding he finally burst into biting the hand. Of course he did. He was being tortured. The little dog was formerly abused, tossed through several houses in his short 2 years. He came in matted and bone thin. He was ill and in pain. She then reluctantly clippered him down and fed him a bit. He was PTS when she performed her stupid test. Note he didn't react negatively to the rather rough handling she gave him when he was in pain with his infected ears, or matted coat, or her touching his food bowl. Just the pigs ear.

She feels better by sending the cocker to the bridge with a belly fully of ????ty McDonalds nuggets.....

Her hypocrisy and sanctimony made me nauseous. I wanted to reach into that TV and save that little sweet dog. He was wagging his tail as she lifted him to get the needle to kill him. It was really genuinely macabre. She should be investigated for her "policies" but of course that won't happen.

She needed to contact a Cocker rescue to take him. He wasn't vicious at all as she claimed. He was protective of a high value item after 2 years of abuse. Gee, what's wrong with that picture!

I'm very upset about that incident. So much so, I'm going to write her a letter of disapproval and one to the filmmaker and HBO.

I have a hard and fast policy about temperament. No people biters. Everything else is eval'd in degrees. Food and resource aggression is learned. Can it be unlearned? That would be attempted then I'd decide on the issue of the dog being PTS. Not just take two as she did and issue the death warrant. After poking and irritating and initiating a conflict.

By the way, years ago, we had a Rottweiler who was food guardy over his marrow bones. What did my 9 year old son do? Pushed the dog repeatedly even after being corrected, talked to, finally semi-spanked and yes, hollered at by us. My son that is, not the dog. We didn't blame the dog. We correct the child. What did my poor dog do? He growled, he growled a little more and then took his bone and turned around so his butt was in the kid's face. That dog did that more than once. He was a 118 lb. Rottweiler and my kid was a 60 lb. brat. Years later my son apologised to his family for teasing our sweet guy Ranger, who never once made good on those growls. Sternberg would've killed him the first time he grumbled. A situation I find beyond the pale.

wilko........From your post I would guess you are taking the pragmatic stance of helping the dogs it is easiest to help first so as to help the most?

That might be sensible, and it might be easier but it ain't neccesarily morally RIGHT.

Yes, absolutely. Sternberg is far too pragmatic at this point. Case in point a Doberman she took in at her shelter.

I didn't like her attitude about the Dobie at all. He was surrendered @ 6 mos of age having just had a Wobler's diagnosis, no specifics were given. Putting him a neck brace for 3 months helped him tremendously but that was only after she was talked into it and a vet confirmed that it might work. Sternberg had to be talked into it. That bothered me a lot. The dog had a perfect temperament and was loveable as heck. I cried hearing him whine, big sissy that I am. After the 3 mos he improved greatly so the vet gave him an okay to adopt. Later they showed him running with 2 other Dobies at someone's house. Thank god someone took this poor loving guy.

My problem with her is her obvious inflexibility and hyperactive pragmatism. She makes no bones about thinking mutts are more worthy of saving than purebreds. I didn't get any impression they call breed rescues for purebreds. All the rest of the dogs shown were mixes. Oh wait I take that back. She had a Dalmatian who went to the town's fire department. That was good.

Her mission is great and I laud her efforts and tirelessness. It's a gruesome job to do triage of that sort. For instance, few people want to face the reality of gassing dogs, which goes on all over the country, still. I happen to think most people who're first time owners should be required to adopt from a shelter, not allowed to go to "breeders". I think every single breeder out there should have to adopt at least 2 rescues from their breed in their lifetime.

Other than that my impression of the film was not good. It was very one-sided and presented no helpful information or tips.

Something about Sternberg herself squeegs me out. I can't put my finger on it but it's my gut reaction. She's too emotionally dishonest and callous but wants approval for what she does at all costs. She seems to be saying one thing, pretends to feel compassion, then acts brutally but very calmly. Very very disturbing to watch. Can I admit I thought of her as a Dog Serial Killer? Case in point: She literally strung up one food aggressive Soft-coated Wheaten without batting an eye, declaring the dog the most dangerous dog she's ever seen. Then she hasn't seen a lot of dogs is what I thought. Because that's not possible. That dog in particular was dangerous if you approached the food bowl. Because the owners had no idea how to train the dog and let it get that way. She didn't direct them to a behavioralist or trainer. She directed them to put their dog down. A big mistake.

Did anyone else's DOG have a problem? Or is mine the only weird one out there?

Yes, my dogs and 2 fosters all ran to the screen several times and one of mine whined and licked the screen. I'm sure they could hear the distress and fear.

Sorry this was so long. I was genuinely upset even this morning when I awoke. Reading this is bringing it all back. :(

[ladawn]

The thought of serial killer came to my mind as well although I did not have the viscereal reaction that many of you did. I understood the euthanizing of Agnes (Aggie) as well. At that point she was truly unadoptable and with so many dogs, perhaps they didn't have the resources to sustain her without hope of adopting her. I also don't remember seeing anything indicating that she was a no kill shelter. In fact, Ginger's owner was told that if no one adopted her, she would be PTS. It was interesting to watch, particularly as someone who is not familiar with shelters (other than adopting Toby from one). It's a tough situation. I don't know what the right answer is. I thought she was a little to quick to dump Beau though. Just my thouhts.

[RottiMomCT]

I finally had a chance to see this show. I had no issues with it except for her 'eval' of Beau. She had an issue with that dog from the moment he walked through the door. hH had been passed from several homes in the span of two years because of 'issues'...um, hello, did anyone take him to classes or a behaviorist?!

The Wheaten Terrier - THAT dog should be PTS, no question s asked. His owners allowed him to become that food aggressive and now have to put him out of the misery they created - the fault lies with his owners there.

Beau, in the opinion of myself and my husband, was re-homeable - he had NO issue with the food bowl, and she never tested him (or they didn't show it) with toys or other lower value items. OK, so he covets a pig ear - DON'T GIVE HIM ANY! It won't kill him not to get one. Ben never gets 'em and he's doing just dandy!

Resource aggression is a behavior that CAN be worked with, she just didn't like the dog from the beginning. If I had been evaluating Beau, I probably wold NOT have had him on a chair, but I probably wold have pushed him for a reaction once he growled when the hand touched the pig ear, I just would not have pushed him as far as she did.

I just about burst when Ginger was adopted, and when the Dobie was given a 'second chance' and adopted even though Sue didn't think he'd make it sanely! That made me very happy, especially the follow ups to see how happy they are in their true forever homes. Her naming of the hounds (Bill & Hilary) cracked me up.

All in all, I think it was a well made piece on Sternberg and her facility, but not shelters in general. She truly cares for the animals, even though her head is sometimes up her butt .

As for 'trying to provoke' the dog, I face an eval like this: I am a novice owner, looking to adopt a cute dog, no matter the age. I approach the eval as a way to see 'how far I can push the dog' before unnacceptable behavior is displayed. I have had dogs fly through the eval and I am ready to take them home, when they decide they want to kill my dog and then kill me.

Have they had enough? Probably. Will they do it again in the real world if adopted? Probably, probably not...there is just as much stress in the real world, if not more, than in a shelter. Do I recommend euthanisia...not all the time, because many issues are workable, as with Beau, don't give him what he covets, and train to make sure he knows who is boss and keep your damn house clean so he doesn't get into anything he shouldn't have! :D Make recommendations as to the type of home that would best suit Beau, like with Ginger (no kids, no cats, etc...) , and I bet he'd have been a success story.

[R&Gsmom]

You have to remember that Sue's test is the BASIS for many shelters tests but not the EXACT test. I myself use it but not like she does. I believe to use it appropriately you need to know something about the breed and the background of the dog you are testing and then USE COMMON SENSE!!!

I haven't seen this HBO Special yet although I really want to. I have however met Sue and she has tested one of my own dogs with this very test. Anne was there and saw this test and heard her tell me that my Guinness was a dominant male rottweiler that will push his weight around and should be PTS because when he is full grown he will be a danger (the test was done when he was about 6 months old if that). I believe Anne also heard me tell Sue where to go with that evaluation. My Guinness grew up to be a WONDERFUL well mannered boy that went to the bridge way too early from illness.

Every person that uses the evaluation needs to use their own judgement as to how far they are going to push to find that reaction. Any dog pushed long enough will show something, as it sounds the cocker did. When doing the test you need to ask yourself "Am I pushing to a point that a normal owner would? Or a child of an irresponsible owner would?"

I 100% agree with Anne about the Pigs ears. Just don't give them! Big Deal!

As far as the fake hand goes I start with that so as not to lose my own fingers just in case. If I get no reaction then I will start to use my own hand just to see since I have found that many dogs (especially rotties) know that it is fake and see it as a toy or something. But I don't sit there and torment them for hours! God most of the dogs that I have evalled eat so damn fast that you only have a few seconds to get in there and do it anyway!!!

I guess what I am saying is don't put down the test because of the way Sue uses it. She can definately be over the top but the test is VERY valuable when used properly and with common sense!

Holly

[godfreyc]

I just wanted to add that I did see it. I don't understand how anyone could be upset that they PTS Aggie. The dog was obiviously shutting down. Even the vet who showed up said she was having massive heart failure. She wasn't moving off her bed anymore and was begining to curl into a fetal position by the time they put her out of her misery. I would never let my dog get to that point before I ended her suffering. As far as her feelings on purebred animals. If you take your beautiful cocker to her and she says I'm probably going to put him to sleep and you leave him anyway, then your the bad guy. And that terrier, my gawd that animal was acting like he had rabies he was so angry. I wouldn't have had him in my house, or felt safe placing him anywhere but in a home where they knew it was very likely they'd get bit before they could turn things around.

[Staff's]

I too couldn't understand anyone not thinking that Aggie being sent to the bridge was anything but RIGHT? The show certainly will GRAB some of the people that have no idea about animal shelters and how many animals are brought to them. I found it very hard to watch but kept flipping back to it?

[shelby842]

You may have about burst "when Ginger got adopted" but when this aired, Ginger was already "dead" the man that adopted her, let her run the roads, and she got hit by a car...then Sue let him adopt another dog.....Also, if you remember, she was against Fred getting a chance, it was the staff, not her....lots of the dogs that were spinning and going for the fence, were border dogs....The family that worked there, were fired for not going along with what she wanted to do to most of the animals, which is to put them to sleep, esp. Pits and Rotties. She said that little terrier was the worst aggressive dog she had ever seen, I thought the worst agression for a dog is to go for the throat, not the stomache.. ( I might be wrong there, mabye she couldn't jump for the throat)I don't know, it seemed it was all about her, not the dogs, and her having the power....I have done lots of research on her, and belong to a group, that does not believe in the way she tt dogs....but that is my opion..I know there are many many dogs that need to be put down..but "Beau" I don't think so...she was even petting this little fella, while he was getting his death meal. (which made me sick, 6 chicken mcnuggets).And the folks that brought him in, said he was great with kids, he went after another dog....my girl, would have not made it thru her tt either...I cried, she could do his ears and he just wagged his little tail, and on top of that he had ear infections.....And the ole girl "Agnus" was to be put down at 1 p.m., she twisted her back and was in terrible pain, but SS told the vet to come at 7 p.m. so she would be in the film....and she died in pain and with BRIGHT LIGHTS SHINNING in her eyes....Now something is wrong with this, don't you think...Hope this doesn't offend anyone, but these are the facts of this film.... :( :( :( :( And how I felt about this show :( :(

[R&Gsmom]

Ok now I REALLY want to see this show. Does anyone know if it is going to be running for the month? I think I am going to call the cable company and get HBO for the month just to see it!

I don't agree with 90% of Sue's decisions on dogs. But as I have said before the test is a good tool IN THE RIGHT HANDS!!!!

[shelby842]

Originally Posted by R&Gsmom

Ok now I REALLY want to see this show. Does anyone know if it is going to be running for the month? I think I am going to call the cable company and get HBO for the month just to see it!

I don't agree with 90% of Sue's decisions on dogs. But as I have said before the test is a good tool IN THE RIGHT HANDS!!!!

Its going to be on all month, try to get someone that already has HBO to tape it for you, you will get give her more attention and credits for this drastic show....... :(

[shelby842]

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