Old style v New style Rottie

[JaniceH]

Out of interest, what is supposed to be the true Rottweiler temperament ? Samanthac mentions the "old style" in the thread "What is normal".

Has it changed over the years ? If so, is this perhaps because of the reputation they suffered, that today, breeders are concentrating hard on temperament and trying to make it more amenable ?

I may be totally wrong, but that is what happened in the UK.

[Judi W]

A search should turn up where I posted the character and temperament from the old ADRK standard. I don't think it has changed except where for sport purposes some were breeding more reactive dogs but that pendalum has swung back with the more stringent requirements in sport. The newer standards do not describe the character in such detail

[JaniceH]

Thank you Judi.

[samanthac]

I've been told by many long time Rottweiler people who have been around this breed for more years than I have walked this planet, that Disel has the 'old style' Rottweiler temperament. Honestly, although I live with it daily, I am not quite sure how to describe it in words, but I will try.

Disel has a lot of 'fire'. He challenges you constantly. He is VERY, VERY confident and very alpha....tends to be a bit aloof. He has very strong nerves. He is stubborn. He is headstrong. And he is smart...smarter than any other Rottweiler I have ever had...scarily smart. He is VERY, VERY honest and does not hesitate to let you know how he is 'feeling' for lack of a better term. As Judi said, those of you with much softer dogs, might peg him for 'aggressive' as you are not used to working with such true tempered dogs, however he is far from aggressive as many on this forum who have met him can attest to. I would not tolerate for a moment a truly aggressive animal in my home.

He is a challenge. And there are some days he even stymies me! But he is also a very stable tempered dog....moreso than any other Rottweiler I have ever had. I deeply appreciate his honest nature as I always know what to expect and it clearly deliniates his boundaries/comfort levels. There are no surprises or guessing with Disel. What you see is what you get....whether you like it or not. :)

Please don't mistake this to think that he is unstable in any way because that simply is not true. But he is not one of those soft, watered down for PC purposes Rottweilers that we are starting to see emerge due to the current climate. He is a strong willed, smart, honest, stubborn boy. He is fine with people (and LOVES kids) as long as they respect his boundaries and personal space,a nd if they do not, he lets them know (not that I EVER let it get to that point).

But he is also an absolute joy to live with. He has a wicked sense of humor, he's quite the clown and he is also very affectionate in his own way. What makes him difficult to live with sometimes is going to make him a wonderful working dog.

I love this dog dearly and feel very blessed to have him in my life!

[Judy Chrusch]

Haaaaaaaaa, sorry samantha, couldn't help laughing about the wicked sense of humor you described bc that is Czar all the way and yes if people didn't really know Czar they'd have a different oppinion of him as well bc he sounds like a carbon copy of Disel and bc I know exactly what kind of personality you're talking about, I surely can relate.

I always said, if an inexperienced rottie owner had Czar they would have given him back , he is a clown and a brat at the same time but we've learned to work together and I know him better then I ever thought I could. He is waaaay too smart for his own good and would take FULL advantage of being alpha if left to do so. All these reasons are why so many of us here say that not everyone can own a rottweiler. A first time owner could not have dealt with Czar bc of his strong desire to be number 1, lol. It doesn't matter if he gives me attitude or not, we don't back down and he knows it and the job gets done, period!!!!

Just had to comment on Disel's personality bc it's so much like Czar.

Judy

[JaniceH]

Thank you Samantha, and you too Judy.

I can understand and appreciate what you both say about the temperament of your dogs. They sound formiddable, but as you say, honest, so you know exactly what is going on in their intelligent minds and thus able to work with and enjoy them. I admire you both.

Thank you again for explaining the characteristics to me.

[wilko]

I am new to this forum, so I don't know if this has been discussed before but some of you in the UK (or knowlegable types elsewhere!) might know....

Regarding "old" and "new" types of rottie - it has often been said to me by other Rottweiler owners I have met in the UK that there are distinct differences between Rots of "german bloodline" as oppossed to ones with other breeding influences (UK bred, US import). I have often heard it said that the "German bloodline" of dogs are shorter and more stocky and are somewhat more fierce, having a stronger working drive than others.

However, I have never seen any printed reference to this so is it just rubbish or is there something in it?

[Judi W]

A difference is most evident in places like the UK where importing for breeding purposes was so onerous that the gene pool became very limited and almost closed. Whereas a stud dog might be brought to the US for a year or so for breeding purposes only, that would have been a very rare thing indeed in the UK considering that half that time would be spent in quarantine. The same thing applied to any type of importing. The UK restrictions were designed to assure an almost closed gene pool. I can often recognize a UK dog but not as you describe. No insult implied, however although I have not had my hand on lots of UK dogs, I have on quite a few. I found them to be a bit lazy and to require quite a bit of work to keep them fit. Quite handsome but a bit clunky to suit me and low in drive for any kind of work. I hope that did not sound too offensive and it was not meant to me and of course it is not a broad paintbrush but just generality.

[wilko]

Just to add to above post before anybody jumps down my throat - YES I realise that breed standards define the breed. YES I realise that these are largely all the same standards all over the world.

HOWEVER, not all rots and not all bloodlines of any pure breed are exactly the same else why bother with dog shows? - just find the perfect dog and clone it ;)


The question isn't "CAN YOU" have differences in type within the same breed standard, it's "DO YOU" have any you can put your finger on as far as rots go?

...and is this linked to "old" or "new" types of temperment? (To make this strictly relavent to the original thread!)

[wilko]

Flipping heck that was quick! Thanks for the reply - you got it up before I had even thought to add my own addentum to my original post :) !


As regards UK dogs being lazy / not easy to keep fit... My boy is lean and fit; mostly because he has to keep up with a setter and a border collie! Maybe UK dogs have just adapted or been adapted themselves to UK owners - there are a lot of sadly "podgy" rotties in the UK - mine is quite muscular not a bit fat, and fans of the breed often remark how nice it is to see a fit one for a change - So it can't only be me noticing the porky ones!

I'm not sure how you measure working drive in a dog other than by ultimate development of working potential... If I'm allowed to make a casual observation my feeling is that my rottie seems to have a strong working drive (our collie came direct from working stock so I know all about a mutt that wants to work!) but I guess I will never know how much he (the rot) wants to work in the strictest sense as I personally do not "work" him only normal training and play.

Is working drive in a rottie how much he wants to drove cattle or how much he wants to attack somebody in a bite suit? Are we talking work in the sense of original purpose or most common contempory use?

My Collie would make an excellent sheepdog but an awful guide dog - not all works the same... so what do you guys mean when you say a rottie has working drive?

[JaniceH]

Hi,

I have also heard that Rotties with German bloodlines have a stronger attitude which needs to be controlled or channelled. However, they do work their rotties more than we do in the UK, and in Germany the rules in the show ring differ from ours in so much as that they are allowed to be aggressive.

I also agree that many Rotties I have met are quite tubby here in the UK. My vet typified some people's perception when he said about my rottie bitch "what on earth is a Rottweiler doing walking 12 miles in the mountains ?". He thought they were more suited to walking round the park and lazing in front of the fire. I had taken her to the vet because she didn't seem to be enjoying these walks as much. (She was eventually diagnosed as having cancer and I lost her last Christmas ) However, she was lean and very fit, and many people thought she was a puppy. We both walked across Scotland, 212 miles, as a holiday and she never really tired at all. However, I wouldn't have a clue what her working drive would have been like as I admit I wouldn't know how to measure it.

[Judi W]

Phew, at least I didn't offend anyone for a change!

A dog with a strong working drive and work ethic does not make a good companion if that is not given an outlet. They must use their mind and body to be happy and they must be worked to bond properly to their owner. It is through work that the partnership is built. Someone on this forum has the saying "if you don't give your dog a job description it will write its own" (or something close to that) and that is quite true.

The type of work itself should be demanding of the mind, require cooperation with the person involved and have physical actions. The same drives that make a good tracking dog or a dog that chases the bad guy across the field are the ones that give a dog the ability to go across a large pasture and dominate and control stock. The mind comes into play because this all is work that requires discipline and cooperation to be successful. Not all dogs are going to have the courage to work in all areas, but they should be worked. Personally, I am disrespectful of a working breed that does not have a need to work. Going on long rambles is fine for physical fittness but it still does not use the mind. It is that wonderful, intuitive mind that stands the Rottweiler apart. The activity is not mindless action but purposeful and task accomplishment centered. Lazy is a large fault.

[JaniceH]

Thank you Judi,

I do understand now.

What is interesting is that I contacted the Police and RAF some time ago asking about rotts they used. There are hardly any working rotts in the UK and two of the reasons I have been given are;

1) They are too soft in the UK.

2) They think too much, whereas the GSD which is the no. 1 working breed, acts before thinking, so its responses are more instant and easier to work with. Just a thought - maybe it is the handlers who are too lazy to develop the instinct !

There are a few employed but nowhere on the same scale as the States or Europe.

[Judi W]

There are actually two different things at work. One would simply be the lack of availability of dogs with the character to do the work. Doesn't matter how dedicated the trainer is if the dogs just don't have it.

The other is breed suitability (not ability). The Rottweiler normally takes longer to mature - that is time spent "not" working or being trained in many aspects of the intended job. They also do not usually change handlers as easily and that can be very important in many service categories. Well, the list is long. To be honest, the UK dogs that I have had my hands on were pretty lazy and it can get to be too much work to try to generate interest in a lazy dog and then you still never quite get there. ;)

With the passport system in effect, it would now be reasonable should a group of UK breeders chose to do so, to bring in some new blood for their breeding programs.

[samanthac]

Really great insights, as usual, Judi. Thanks for posting! :)