Police K9 Unit Candidates

[TrishB]

I've seen various comments over my time here on the boards, but I'd like to ask the question point blank, to those in the know.

What makes a dog a candidate for the Police K9 Unit? You can put in Army, Marines, etc. if you like.

I would think that it would have to be a dog of good body (free from HD, SAS, elbow dysplasia, etc.) and of a stable, confident nature, temperament and mind.

However, I've also seen comments that a dog with aggression issues (issue being defined as a problem in a family home) might be a good candidate.

Now, I'm just going from my own line of thought here, not based on fact. But I would *think* that an aggressive dog / fear biter dog / overly dominant dog would NOT be a good candidate because of their unstable temperament. These dogs have to be able to turn ON AND OFF. It's great that the dog would go after the bad guy - but if you can't pull the dog off, that isn't any better than a dog that won't go after them in the first place.

Now, as I said - this is what I think. So to those of you who work with K9 units - what would be your criteria for a dog? What would cause a dog to be turned down?

Sometimes I get the feeling that people with dogs that have these sort of issues use the 'maybe he could be a police dog' as an excuse or an out, when they really shouldn't be. What are your thoughts?

[Judi W]

I have helped place 3 Rottweilers in police units. In each case they were tough dogs (one was a bitch), stand up critters but not vicious and with a strong working background. They all three served well through to retirement age. The K-9 handlers are often, not dog trainers, but police officers who are taught how to work with dogs. There is a difference. Many of the dogs change handlers over the course of their careers so they must have a degree of flexibility and desire to work.

[spidey]

Now, I'm just going from my own line of thought here, not based on fact. But I would *think* that an aggressive dog / fear biter dog / overly dominant dog would NOT be a good candidate because of their unstable temperament. These dogs have to be able to turn ON AND OFF. It's great that the dog would go after the bad guy - but if you can't pull the dog off, that isn't any better than a dog that won't go after them in the first place.

I agree with this - I can't think that a police unit would want an aggressive dog, they'd want a stable dog with (as Judi describes it) a "stand up" temperament (which I assume means an assertive, confident, tough-as-nails kind of dog). There is a lot of liability in training a dog to attack people on command, you must have a dog which can be controlled and which has good bite inhibition, not a vicious dog. Some trainers say that aggression is the other side of the same coin as fear - many dogs who are aggressive are that way because of a LACK of confidence, which isn't suitable for a K-9 unit dog, IMO. I've met a couple of police dogs (which is admittedly too small a number to be anything like representative of all police dogs), and they were anything but vicious.

Just my opinion, but I do think that people who suggest sending an out-of-control aggressive dog to the police K-9 unit don't really understand what police training is all about, or what they're looking for.

[TrishB]

Originally posted by Judi W
I have helped place 3 Rottweilers in police units. In each case they were tough dogs (one was a bitch), stand up critters but not vicious and with a strong working background.

I think this is where the confusion occurs.

People confuse sharp or high drive dogs with aggressive. A high drive dog is NOT aggressive. It simply has a high drive. The two are not interchangable.

Maybe we need a clear definition for:

- Drive
- High Drive
- Prey Drive
- Sharp
- Aggressive

So that people will realise that there is a difference. Who's up to the task? ;) JudiW? ;)

[Judi W]

I have to add that much depends upon the department. Some departments have more resources and expertise than others. Some are known for having good multi-purpose K-9s and others, not. Also, there are some dogs who are used strictly for building searches as they can and will bite anyone they find. Big however on these dogs, they still need to be able to be handled.........

[rottnkidd]

I don't want to open a can of worms Trish, but although drive is important, I think in any type of protection work it's more about
nerve strength and thresholds. I recall Mick Trainer writing a lengthy post on this about a year ago or so. It's in the archives somewhere. I'll see if I can locate it. Best wishes -
kathy

[rottnkidd]

Trish, here's the info. The thread was written in Oct of 1999!
This explains drives, nerves, etc., and how these 'components' can differ in each and every dog. It may not answer your specific question(s) regarding K9 cops, but it will give you some incite into what 'may' be the 'right stuff' for that type of working dog.
http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/sho...&threadid=5142
Best wishes -
kathy

[TrishB]

Thank you Kathy!

This is exactly what I was thinking about! :D

Something that can describe drive and what it means from the perspective of the dog. That simple aggression is NOT appropriate, but the drives behind how the aggression was arrived at, ARE appropriate.

I think it's important that people know that K9 Units are not a dumping ground or a fall back for their failings. K9 Units are an integral part of our emergency protection frame work. It is not for unbalanced dogs. It is for dogs of solid temperament, impeccable drive and capability.

If you've found yourself with an unstable dog - you made a commitment to that dog. Invest in a behaviouralist. Get professional training. Keep up to the responsibility you took on when you got your dog. 'Donating' your dog to a K9 unit really isn't a possibility. Keeping your dog is. ;)

[JonandMichelle]

As a K-9 handler in the Air Force the perfect dog for me is Amor!:D He's my boy now! This is just my opinion I don’t speak on the behalf of the United States Air Force. But honestly, health is a #1 concern, you don't want a dog who is going to have HD later on down the road or a family history of other illnesses. Strong nerves to handle the pressure put the dog by the day to day duties. Over dominant, no thank you, don't need the problem with a dog deciding at the wrong time to assert himself, i.e.. dealing with a suspect. A dog who can react with pray drive and defensive drive to handle himself when I send him for a bite, turn it off like a light switch when I tell him to, that's the dog for me. A dog who has the play drive to search for narcotics or explosives even when he's been searching for several hours with out a find but keeps on going just to chew on that toy or simply to please you. As for the question of sending a dog with aggression problems to a police department or into the military. I don't agree that would be the best way to handle it. Most PD's don't have personnel available to train the dog the way he needs to be in order to channel that aggressiveness, the military could work with it and channel it the right way but you always's run the risk of it rearing it's ugly head at the wrong time and that runs the risk of injury to the handler or someone else and we all know what kind of damage a dog with that kind of training can inflict.
Temperment, self confident, strong nerves, LOTS of play and work drive with a side of consistant training = a well rounded dog. IMHO :)

Jon

[laurlitt]

Maybe we need a clear definition for:

- Drive
Drive to me is the same as using the word 'emotion' when talking about a human... There are many different emotions/drives so a definition of the word drive isn't so straight forward (there is prey drive, food drive, defense drive, fight drive, toy drive...)

- Sharp
Not a characteristic I'd want in a dog and IS quite commonly associated w/ aggression. I think there are many different opinions of 'sharp'. To me it means quickly responding to stimuli (most often in a negative way) before processing what just happened.

From what I've seen w/ dogs being trained or sent off to Police work... the edge you're talking about negative (a bit of agression, on the 'sharper' side, or even civil) is often sought out for...

[FredAl]

As someone who raises, trains and provides service dogs to the police and military, I do not see many donated dogs making the grade for service. I agree with Trish that many people think that their aggressive dog could be a good candidate for the police. However their view of aggression for service is different from mine. I’ve tested many dogs that owners think had the right aggression, but the aggression was actually based on fear (low nerve thresholds) instead of combat drive, which I am looking for.

In order to avoid confusion, I have to clarify my terminologies about some drives. Combat drive is sometimes referred to as fight drive in some circles. However I think they should be considered as two different drives. Fight drive is related to defense (as in fight or flight = survival), while combat drive is related to protection (the DESIRE to protect or defend by soliciting a fight).

An analogy: A man walking the street gets mugged and the mugger demands for his wallet. The man refuses. The mugger attacks him and the man fights back. A passerby sees the scuffle and joins the fight to help the man.

The man with the wallet went into fight drive because he is defending his money and his life. The passerby went into combat drive to protect the man. If the passerby had a high defense drive (survival = fight or flight), he would have fled the scene because he really had no business fighting for a complete stranger.

In a service dog, I would like to see a medium-high to high combat drive. If combat drive were very high, the dog tends to become a bully.

Drive is a collection of behaviors (innate and learned) that dictates how a dog reacts or responds to change the stimuli in its environment. We assign some sort of measurement (very low, low, medium, medium-high, high, very high) to serve as a guide for us to communicate what we observe. Technically, high drive doesn’t mean anything unless the drive is specified, i.e. high PREY drive. Prey drive is the predator’s desire to chase, grab and vanquish its prey. In service dogs, prey item can be a toy, ball, protection sleeve, etc.

The meaning of sharpness in dogs has evolved to connote something negative: aggressive. I still subscribe to the original meaning sharpness to denote showing or having a keen awareness; attentive; vigilant. This is the same sharpness that Max von Stephanitz refers to, which I think clearly defines a Police K9; and I quote:

“The guardian dog has to be sharp, but his sharpness has to be tamed by training, kept for the right purposes and has to be linked with strict obedience. Sharpness has nothing to do with dangerous biting. Wicked and biting dogs are the result of wrong training and upbringing: torture, purposeless incitement by silly and malignant people, chain and kennel; the dog very often bites only because he is scared and excited, because his nerves are exhausted and he thinks that only by biting can he escape some threatening danger. On the other hand, the properly sharp dog is harmless and good-natured; also towards strangers, though in that case he will be reticent, he is not a flatterer.”

Testing of canine drives, temperament, hardness, thresholds, etc. are pretty much defined in service dog manuals. One important canine trait that is being overlooked by service dog evaluators, who mainly focus on drives, is the dog’s sensibility. I like to see a thinking dog that is sensible enough to recognize situations and conditions and reacts appropriately. An example is the K9 that was shown on TV. The interviewer, who posed no threat, sat for pictures to be taken next to the dog. As the reporter stood up, the dog immediately bit his face. Although the dog was properly trained for the task, it displayed a lack of sensibility.

The drives I look for in a service dog are also dependent on the requirements and the tasks of the service. For explosives and drug detection dogs, I want to see very high prey, retrieve and hunt drives – almost obsessive – but with low to medium protection drive. For a dual-purpose drug detection dog/police K9, I would want its protection drive to be medium-high to high. For patrol dogs, I want to see medium-high to high protection drive, but prey, retrieve and hunt drives medium-high to high.

[spidey]

Wow, thanks FredAl, that's a really informative post. It all makes sense.

[TrishB]

Originally posted by FredAl
As someone who raises, trains and provides service dogs to the police and military, I do not see many donated dogs making the grade for service. I agree with Trish that many people think that their aggressive dog could be a good candidate for the police. However their view of aggression for service is different from mine. I’ve tested many dogs that owners think had the right aggression, but the aggression was actually based on fear (low nerve thresholds) instead of combat drive, which I am looking for.

Incredible post! Thank you so much! It was exactly what I was looking for. :)

[spoteet]

I don't know what the ideal dog is for police work, I know what I think it should be. However, I have had several encounters with different police dogs and every one was extremely dog aggressive and most had people aggression. I was at a dog event that was offering a demonstration by the local ploice departments drug dog. They made every remove their dogs from the police dog's sight during the demo because he was so dog aggressive. I had a problem with that and left. My problem was why is such a dog being used for the demo and why was he a police dog any ways.

[TrishB]

Originally posted by spoteet
... every one was extremely dog aggressive and most had people aggression.

1) One encounter is not a rule.

2) Dog : Dog aggression might not be an issue in a Dog : People specific role.

3) A Dog : People aggression might not be an issue for a bomb / narcotics sniffing dog as the dog only has to work with the handler.

I think you need to take into account the specific role which the dog is in, and if that particular issue would affect their ability to complete the job successfully. ;)