Assessing Temperament

[TrishB]

There have been many discussions lately as to how to assess temperament. Is a CGC (CGN) an accurate reflection? A TT? Maybe a CD? Or is Schutzhund the only true indicator?

I find it hard to believe that if a person has no interest in Schutzhund or Bite Work - that there is no other way to evaluate the dogs true temperament, drive or nerve. What other methods / training / competition / tests could you use?

I for one have no interest in bite work. Maybe it's from a lack of knowledge, maybe it's from logical fact. I guess that's up for debate. However I have small children in my family, as well as a large family that gathers often. I have no need for a dog with that type of training. Nor do I have an interest in it. Without the interest, I doubt I'd be a very good handler for it. From what I gather, it requires a very dedicated pair; if my heart wasn't in it, I highly doubt I'd fit the bill.

Do I think less of dogs / owners who do work bite work? No. I commend them for working so hard together! :) It just isn't for me. ;)

[lblax]

Originally posted by TrishB
I for one have no interest in bite work. Maybe it's from a lack of knowledge, maybe it's from logical fact. I guess that's up for debate. However I have small children in my family, as well as a large family that gathers often. I have no need for a dog with that type of training. Nor do I have an interest in it. Without the interest, I doubt I'd be a very good handler for it. From what I gather, it requires a very dedicated pair; if my heart wasn't in it, I highly doubt I'd fit the bill.

Do I think less of dogs / owners who do work bite work? No. I commend them for working so hard together! :) It just isn't for me. ;)

if you have no interest in bite work that is fine.......and you are right without interest you probably wouldnt be a good handler at it.... but i was wondring what you meant by logical fact???????????.... one thing to remember bite work does not change the temparmant of the dog....and a dog that is good around children and at large gatherings will be just as good if not more secure in these surroundings and in no way will doing bite work with a stable dog make it a danger to anyone

[Miabella]

Well, I am not involved with Schutzhund, so I really don't think I'm biased towards it. But I will say that I know plenty of dogs with CGCs, CDs (heck, even a couple UDs), and TTs that do not have good nerves. And I'll add therapy dog certification to the list of things that are not sufficient tests of temperament, since a dog of mine passed TDI without problem but I've since judged her myself as unsuitable therapy dog material.

[Judi W]

OK, I'll tell a story on myself kind of. My older girl is grandaughter to one of the toughest while fair and balanced bitches I've ever known. This girl had done a bit of sleeve work and I knew she was quite well-balanced in her drives, but I did not particularly credit her with any great courage. Until..................

The first time she was worked on cattle she had three young steers that were not only not going to move with the rest of her herd, but that went after her with hooking horns and attempting to stomp her and they were very serious. Her previous experience had all been with sheep who might get stuborn, but don't try to turn a dog into a cow patty. She trotted over to me and said "they don't want to come" (we already had a group moving where we wanted. I told her I wanted her to go back and get them (with some very real trepidation as I've seen many experienced dogs with broken legs and teeth kicked out by this kind of stock). At any rate, she put on her best cowboy hat, changed her body posture and went back in there and subdued them and moved them. It took some doing on her part, but I was quite impressed as that indeed did take courage. Cattle do not follow any rules and are not predictable. They are VERY big and have weapons. From then on I did not underestimate her courage. Over the years I have discovered she is a very serious bitch.

Would she have been a good sport dog? I don't know. I don't do sport any more and when I did, mainly worked with dogs. The one bitch I worked was very strong but she was not impressed when she found out it was not for real. I speculate, but bitches are different than dogs in my mind and often more serious. The dogs love the fight and even if it is a mock fight they get off on the wrestling (figure of speech) whereas I think it is possible that one of the reasons there are fewer successful bitches in sport is not just because the intact girls have conflicts with their seasons and breedings, but they are simply different in their perceptions.

In order to judge character one must understand it and also be able to read subtlies. When we had a temperament test with a very strong threat, I watched a couple of titled sport dogs book it as far as their leads would allow. I was expecting it with those particular dogs who were overly sharp when working with a helper and had also bitten their handlers. Considered tough by some, when faced with an unknown, they were cowards even though they had much more experience than most of the dogs tested.

I think a good helper can tell the difference. I do not think merely observing a dog go through a trial always reveals everything one would want to know.

My edit comments, BTW, when the bitch had to go after the scary cattle, she was entirely on her own as I was at the other end of the pasture. There was no "borrowed" courage from the handler let alone any nearness to offer physical reassurance or help.

[Boomer97]

There is no simple formula really. I would however answer no to a CGC, TT, and a CD. Schutzhund would probably be the closest to testing temperament , nerve and drive. But even that is not 100% accurate. Maybe that is why the ADRK requires a Ztp. before a dog can be bred. The Ztp. requires bitework.

I'm a CGC evaluator, and nothing in the CGC is earth shattering as far as testing goes. I've helped with TT's before as the "evil guy" and witnessed dogs passing that station when they shouldn't have. To much subjection by the evaluator. I've gone the AKC route and a CD proves even less than a CGC as far as nerve and temperament go IMO.

Hats off to you for realizing if you're not interested in Schutzhund you probably would not do so well. It's not for everyone, nor is every dog for it. Doesn't make it a bad dog just a bad dog for the work required. The closest thing I could think of that stops short of actual helper engagment would be a WH. Not many people even try for that title. Most of the ones who do it, do so for trial experience or have a dog that just doesn't have what it takes to complete a Sch1, or in your case wants to take their dog one step further.

[Judi W]

Larry is correct. A well-balanced dog does not change doing the bite work. The sport truly is great fun for both handler and dog and I have never seen a dog change who it is by doing the work. It does require the right dog, a good club and a considerable amount of time. It is a demanding sport for both handler and dog with proportionate rewards.

[Bruce Lanthier]

When I mentioned herding in the other thread I was thinking of herding cattle, not sheep. I believe it would take a great deal of courage on the dogs part to move animals so much bigger than themselves. And doing it to the point of getting hurt shows incredible courage.

How about a dog walking across a 12 inch board 6 feet off of the ground? Weak nerves won't do that. Climbing the A frame? Maintaining a downstay in a tenuous (to the dog) situation. Some of these involve trust in the owner but a dog with weak nerves would still bolt before a dog with stronger nerves.

I don't believe there is one test to assess temperament. I think you would have to expose, and observe, the dog in much more than a few stressfull situations. The TT tries to create a bunch of mini situations and I think it can give you an indication of a dogs temperament but it can't assess a dogs temperament.

I was walking my dogs while there was a lot of thunder happening a couple of nights ago. In general it doesn't bother them but, this night, there was some close and loud thunder claps. A couple of times Buster would side step. fold his ears back and want to move a little faster towards home. Betti never acted like she heard any of it. Now, some might think Buster was the smart one and me and Betti were idiots, but it was just another indicator to me of both my dog's temperaments and what I can expect from them. Others are how they approach strange objects in strange places. Put a box in your front yard without letting your dog see you. Then, at night, walk out the door like you are going on your normal walk. Watch what your dog does when it sees the box. Keep quiet and keep the lead real loose. How does your dog handle it? There are many ways to assess your dogs temperament but the crucial element is being honest with yourself about what you observe when making these assessments. I think it's hard for some to admit they have a dog with weaker nerve than they want to admit.

[lblax]

Originally posted by Judi W
Would she have been a good sport dog? I don't know. I don't do sport any more and when I did, mainly worked with dogs. The one bitch I worked was very strong but she was not impressed when she found out it was not for real. I speculate, but bitches are different than dogs in my mind and often more serious. The dogs love the fight and even if it is a mock fight they get off on the wrestling (figure of speech) whereas I think it is possible that one of the reasons there are fewer successful bitches in sport is not just because the intact girls have conflicts with their seasons and breedings, but they are simply different in their perceptions.

i to have a dog that is unimpressed because it is not real he works very well if the really make it civil . but some days he does just like the wrestling. in our club the best dogs are the bitches and i think the reason you dont see more in competition is because of the old macho image of working the big powerful male lol... but seriously my next working prospect (in the next 6 months) is going to be a gsd bitch

[lblax]

very nice and truthful reply bruce

[TrishB]

So herding and agility might also prove a temperament without bite work? What else?

Meaning, if you saw a dog with a herding title and an agility title, along with a CH - you'd put it on the same level as a CH, Sch dog?

Parker might be a good candidate for Schutzhund. I don't know enough to know. But as I said, I don't have any interest in it. And this sport isn't one where you can pass the dog to a handler to do for you (nor would I want to, even if I could).

But that doesn't mean that I don't want to test and/or prove his temperament, drive and nerve. I'm just looking for alternatives.

[moondog]

I had a situation sort of similar to Bruce's this past winter with Luna. I live in an area that's loaded with eucalyptus trees and they hadn't been trimmed in way too long, so with our stormy winter those trees were regularly dropping branches as big as 15" in diameter that would block the entire street. We were out on our walk one day and as we approached a tree and were about 10 feet away from it, I heard a cracking sound ahead and stopped. Luna sat beside me and looked up with me as a huge branch came down that was the size of a small tree! There was an ear-splitting noise and when it came to rest, it had completely hidden the car it landed on. I was amazed at Luna's attitude towards this, I was fully prepared for her to bolt when it hit the ground and she just sat next to me like we were watching a show of some kind (and I guess we were!). That told me something about her temperament that I had suspected, but had never known for sure before then. :)

I do know how Luna would handle a box on the front lawn. She'd go right to it, give it a sniff, and unless it was full of sausage or strange noises, that would be the extent of her interest! :D

[Bruce Lanthier]

Originally posted by TrishB
So herding and agility might also prove a temperament without bite work? What else?

Meaning, if you saw a dog with a herding title and an agility title, along with a CH - you'd put it on the same level as a CH, Sch dog?

I'm not so sure about that. I don't know if the dog has to herd cattle to earn a herding title. And my understanding of agility titles is that they wouldn't stress a dog like Sch. Titles are indicators but I don't think I would rely on titles to describe the dog's temperament to me. Nor would I say this title is comparable to that title.

Thanks Larry.

[Grendl]

What would be the ideal reaction by the dog to the box placed in the front yard? What would be a poor reaction? And Boomer97, what's a WH? Thanks.

[Boomer97]

WH is a watchdog title. Here is a link for the rules:

http://www.????????.com/wh.htm#wh

[lblax]

Originally posted by Grendl
What would be the ideal reaction by the dog to the box placed in the front yard? What would be a poor reaction? And Boomer97, what's a WH? Thanks.

they should notice it but they should calmly go and investigate it. what you dont want to see is barking circling hackels up ect... now dont confuse this with items that change in there surroundings that they cant get to to investigate like something outside your fence becausde they may very well bark and carry on at it