Posting My Rant Re: 'Vicious' Breeds - (Long)

[TrishB]

I have to post my rant here - to people who will understand what I'm saying:

Panic Rather Than Logic

This entire case is based on a panic mentality rather than logic.

Simply put - there is no proof that any single breed is more dangerous than another. Sadly, some breeds tend to attract questionable, irresponsible OWNERS and the dogs become their victims.

Responsible ownership is the ONLY contributing factor to any dog bite incidence. Supervision while with children, not being allowed to run at large, proper training and socialization of all pets; regardless of breed.

I have worked in the pet industry for 14 years; the vast majority of that with dogs. 9 years of that was within veterinary practices. I had dealt with Pit Bulls, German Shepherds, Rottweilers and other supposedly 'vicious' breeds. During that time, I was only bitten by 2 dogs: a beagle and a terrier mix.

Do I now feel that Beagles and Terriers are vicious? Of course not. They were two individual dogs. Their actions have no reflection whatsoever on their respective breeds. Their individual actions were reflections of themselves and their owners. Solely and completely.

Until owners are held accountable for their pet’s actions - attacks will continue to occur. Addressing a single breed will only encourage unscrupulous, irresponsible owners to move on to other breeds of dogs. Leaving responsible, loving owners of that chastised breed to pick up the pieces and pay for their mistakes.

Rather than attacking a particular breed of dog, which will have no impact on dog bites, why not address the cause of the problem? Owners whom choose not to take responsibility for their own, careless actions.

A poor response was:

Tricia, there are 700,000 dog bites reported each year. 98% on children. 90% is caused by 8 breeds of dogs. The pit bull,chow,German Shephard, Rottweiler,husky,Doberman and
Dalmation.

After the movie 101 Dalmations people bought several Dalmations. There was an epidemic of kids being bitten by dalmations.

I raised German shephards for a few years. They all received the same treatment. 1 of them for no reason bit my son in the face he was about 9 years old and the dog was 3. I had raised the dog from a pup. It was perfect with the kids. Out of every litter I had some that were out right vicious but the majority were very
docile. I made sure that every pup I sold that the person understood that the breed was for guard dogs.

I could tell you stories for hours about the kids that have been mauled by German shephards, dobermans and rottwielers.
These dogs were bred for a specific purpose and are very good at what they were bred for.

Some makes a good pet but I would never trust one with kids.

They don't make very good rabbit dogs no matter how much training they receive. I am convinced it is genetic. I never hold the
dog responsible. It is the owners place to research the breed and find out all they can about the breed and decide if the dog is what
fits their purpose.

I own a miniture schnauzer. Best watch dog I ever had. All I need is for her to let me know when someone is around. Me
and Winchester will take care of the rest. This has been my experience with dogs. I play the percentages.
EJG

And my response:

EJG:

I completely and whole-heartedly disagree with you. Your raising German Shepherds does not make you an expert, nor would I ever purchase a puppy from a person who said they were only 'guard dogs'.

A dog may be wonderful with kids. But they are still dogs and kids are still kids. They should never be left unattended or unsupervised. Although I'm sure that when your son was bitten, that it was a horrible experience for you both - what were the contributing factors? Dogs don't "just bite". There are warning signs, looks, body language, growls, etc. I'm not saying that it was your son's fault - but a child is hardly able to read these warning signs. Which is why no child should be left alone with ANY dog.

I've heard many stories where a child was bitten for 'no reason' and then heard - well, the child did take food out of his bowl and he doesn't like that. A supervised child with a properly trained dog (which therefore, would have been trained not to be food aggressive for instance) is a happy child and dog.

None of this has to do with the breed. It has to do with proper ownership and responsible breeding.

A responsible breeder would not misspell their breed’s name (German ShephErd, not German ShephArd http://www.gsdca.org/ as you did). Nor would they continue to breed dogs that were producing questionable temperament. You made no mention of if you took your dogs to shows, obedience competitions or working classes; if they had earned any titles at all, so that they had earned the right to be bred…. Which would make me question why you were breeding at all.

Did your dogs have their hips certified along with their elbows, heart and eyes? Pain due to genetic defect is also a contributing factor to dog bites. These are the results of irresponsible breeders producing unsound animals - not due to the breed.

Dalmatian bites went up when ownership of the breed went up. A sudden flood of Dalmatians hit the market. Where did they come from? Did responsible breeders suddenly start breeding 10 times the amount of dogs? No - irresponsible people who wanted to make a quick buck bred the first two dogs they could get their hands on - with no concern for the breed or for the people who purchased them. Temperament, structure, health and ability were not taken into consideration.

1) Get your dog from a Code of Ethics breeder (they will be listed with the breed clubs they are members of) - not from someone's back yard or a pet store. Please go to http://www.akc.org/ to start your search, attend some dog shows, get to know a good, dedicated breeder that will provide you with a healthy puppy.

2) Have your dog attend obedience classes. Regardless of breed or size.

3) Be a responsible owner - don't leave them unsupervised while with children, don't allow them to run at large, don't ignore them in your backyard, don't allow them to become a menace.

4) Spay or Neuter your pets.

5) Maintain their health through proper, annual veterinary care.

6) Research your breed before you get it. If the purpose for which they have been bred for does not match your own - keep looking, the perfect dog is out there. Breeders and veterinarians will be more than happy to help you chose the right dog for you and your lifestyle.

7) Be realistic about your training abilities. If you have not trained a dog in the past, larger, more powerful breeds with high work drives are probably not your best choice. Meet with a professional trainer, have your abilities assessed – they’ll be happy to match you with a breed.

Dog bites are not due to any specific breed - they are due to the irresponsibility of owners who have set their dogs up for failure by not training, socializing, supervising or caring for them.

Attempting to curtail a particular breed will only drive irresponsible owners to other breeds (your Dalmatian example is a good one). Shifting the problem somewhere else rather than solving it. Why only treat the symptom? Treat the cause.

Encourage responsible ownership and dog bites will decrease. That is what the studies prove. That is what should be done.

Why did I feel the need to post this here? I'm proud of my responses. I feel that I responded with thought and logic and made some very good points that people here could appreciate and possibly use should they so choose.

[Brooke&Ryan]

Trish, I think it was a wonderful response. Instead of getting defensive you simply stated the facts. Plus it didn't help that he didn't know how to spell German ShephErd the breed that he was breeding. Hopefully this will help other people who read it.

Brooke

[TrishB]

Thank you Brooke. I was worried that people outside of the 'doggy world' would give this guy extra credit because he was a 'breeder'. Any moron can get two dogs to mate. That doesn't make them knowledgable, responsible breeders! :p

[mrsbones]

Beautiful response and incredibly well put Trish. I wish there were more people who would analyze a problem the way you have. Its true that a anybody can get 2 dogs and have puppies. Doesn't mean a thing when it comes to raising the animals in a positive and responsible manner. The problem is not with the breeds, it is with irresponsible caretakers. Hopefully with more people like you engaged in meaningful discussions...people will shift their perceptions to a place where the responsibility falls will the owners. Bravo :)

[Dallasbaby]

Great post Trish..... and one thing.... weren't Rottweilers actually bred to pull carts....?????? Please correct me if I am wrong. For some reason that idea is sticking in my head...

THANKS!

Jilleen Damer and Dallas

[Birdie'sMom]

Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful response, Trish!!! AWESOME!! :) I hope it gave that moron something to think about. He tried to sound so intelligent and experienced and you just ripped his post to shreds! Great job!:)

[TrishB]

Additional responses have been:

It’s obvious that you didn’t raise the dogs to be a responsible breeder. ‘For extra income’ is hardly the drive behind breeding. Especially when you acknowledge that the dogs you bred didn’t have solid temperaments. And ‘usually true to it’s breed’ isn’t good enough, in my humble opinion.

The only disagreement you seem to have with my statements was that you couldn’t monitor your children and your dogs 24 / 7. My response to that is – then don’t have dogs. It isn’t impossible to be there. My dog is never left alone with children. Why not? Because he’s a dog – not a babysitter. To expect anything other than for him to be a dog is ludicrous. And I accept the responsibility, 24 / 7, because it’s the right thing to do. And I know of countless more responsible pet owners who will agree.

From your response, I would have to assume that your son being bitten for ‘no reason’ was for a reason – your lack of supervision. Since you don’t know what happened, you weren’t there to prevent it. You placed your dog in a failure-ridden scenario and he failed. But the true failing was your own.

Back to the topic at hand: Bites won’t occur if dogs are not put into failing situations. This isn’t breed specific; it’s simple, logical fact. Animals bred, raised, handled and trained responsibly won’t have the opportunity to bite, because they won’t be placed in the position to do so in the first place.

And....

The Doberman Pinscher temperament as per the standard is:

"Energetic, watchful, determined, alert, fearless, loyal and obedient."

Energetic - Possessing, exerting, or displaying energy.

Watchful - Closely observant or alert; vigilant.

Determined - To establish or ascertain definitely, as after consideration, investigation, or calculation.

Alert - Mentally responsive and perceptive.

Fearless - Without fear; brave.

Loyal - Faithful to a person, ideal, custom, cause, or duty.

Obedient - Dutifully complying with the commands, orders, or instructions of one in authority.

What part of those traits to you not understand? What part do you read as vicious or aggressive?

A true Doberman Pinscher, true to the standard in structure, temperament and ability is a truly nobel and incredible dog that any true animal lover would be blessed to have. I would be proud and thrilled to have such a dog and would trust it, while under my responsible care, with any family member or friend; young or old.

He then asked us to list in order of which 'we'd be most afraid of' if approached from a list he posted. For some reason - the thread won't let me post to it. The simple answer is none. It depends on HOW the individual dog approached, not the breed. :p

[Luvs]

Trish, your response to that idiot were well thought out and very well articulated! You did a great job! I love the fact that you didn't attack him you just stuck to the facts. I wish I could express myself as well as you do
Well done!;)

[Brooke&Ryan]

Originally posted by Luvs
Trish, your response to that idiot were well thought out and very well articulated! You did a great job! I love the fact that you didn't attack him you just stuck to the facts. I wish I could express myself as well as you do
Well done!;)

I agree! I would have gotten angry long before now & probably called this guy a moron! Way to stay cool Trish!

[TrishB]

Originally posted by Brooke&Ryan
I agree! I would have gotten angry long before now & probably called this guy a moron! Way to stay cool Trish!

LMAO! :D

Umm, you should have read my first drafts!! ;) Nevermind what I've been muttering under my breath while I've been typing.... It would be enough to make a drunken sailor blush!! :D

And the latest installment from the $#%^@:

tricia, this would probably work most of the time.
But i have seen dogs that were friengly and
when they got close enough they would tear
your leg off. Some dogs are very unpridictable.
I love garage sailing. I go all the time all over.
I meet so many nice people. I see a lot of dogs
on there home turf. I never see a Doberman,
German Shepard, Rottweiler, Husky, outside
the house they are kept as far away from the
public as can be. The reason is always the same
too risky. I am met at the driveways by many
breeds that are friendly. I like good dogs and
have good relationships with hundreds of dogs.
But none of the breeds with reputations for
being risky.
It is very rare for a thief to break into a home
that has a Doberman, rottweiler, or German
shephard. Not if they have any sense. You are
judging from your experience and I am mine.
We are both probably right a lot depends on
the circumstances. A dog just like us humans
have a bad side and a good side. I have seen
the most docile male and female produce the
most viscious pups in German Shephards.
And the other way around. There is no way to
tell what you are going to get ahead of time.
It's an unpredictable gamble just like with 2
human beings.

And my response:

Once again - you're wrong. Please note that I'm not disagreeing with you just for the sake of disagreeing. But because your bases for your arguments are fundamentally incorrect and not based on facts or logic.

---------------

Dogs are kept inside so that they aren't put into a potentially failing situation. If I'm running a garage sale, my dog will be inside. Why? Because I can't responsibly monitor my dog while I'm busy selling things, meeting people and strangers are wandering around my property. Therefore, the responsible thing is to leave the dog inside. Don't read more into the situation than there is.

A 'guard dog' is 99% visual. If a dog is present - of any breed - the burglary attempts drop drastically. Why? Because dealing with a dog is a complication not worth risking than a house with no dog. If a thief knows a dog is in the house, chances are they'll choose another. Even if all that dog would do is hold the flashlight for them - they don't know that.

Yes - a breeder CAN dictate the temperament that they will turn out with their puppies. It's called research. It's called dedication. It's called established breeding criteria. It's called titled parents with both conformation AND working titles. It's called complimentary breeding lines to ensure that the best are only bred to the best.

Please. Go to a dog show. Go to an obedience trial. See REAL dogs with REAL breeders, trained by PROFESSIONAL trainers. Talk to dedicated people who love their breed of choice and find out the truth about them. Until then, stop talking about a venue that you obviously know nothing about.

I must admit - I'm quite proud of myself in the fact that this guy/woman still doesn't know what kind of dog I have. I've done my best to keep it non-personal. Although - it hasn't been easy!! ;)

[Luvs]

Originally posted by TrishB
tricia, this would probably work most of the time.
But i have seen dogs that were friengly and
when they got close enough they would tear
your leg off. Some dogs are very unpridictable.
I love garage sailing. I go all the time all over.
I meet so many nice people. I see a lot of dogs
on there home turf. I never see a Doberman,
German Shepard, Rottweiler, Husky, outside
the house they are kept as far away from the
public as can be. The reason is always the same
too risky. I am met at the driveways by many
breeds that are friendly. I like good dogs and
have good relationships with hundreds of dogs.
But none of the breeds with reputations for
being risky.
It is very rare for a thief to break into a home
that has a Doberman, rottweiler, or German
shephard. Not if they have any sense. You are
judging from your experience and I am

Garage sailing???? LMAO That says it all:D :D

Trish, yet again your post was very well thought out and very well said! GREAT JOB!!;)

[fbkeays]

Originally posted by Dallasbaby
Great post Trish..... and one thing.... weren't Rottweilers actually bred to pull carts....?????? Please correct me if I am wrong. For some reason that idea is sticking in my head...

Rottweilers were the general all purpose ranch dog. They pulled carts and herded the stock. They went out and hunted with their owners. Right around the 1880 Germany banned any dog that hunted from being a herding dog. That and with the industrial revolution and the advent of sending stock to market on trains, the rottweiler, without a job to do, all but died out by 1900. At that time they were then discovered to be good police dogs.
I herd with my dog on a weekly basis. Given the choice, that is all my dog would want to do. He would be out there moving sheep until he fell over dead. For the past two years he has been entered in local AKC and AHBA herding trials. It is amazing to me the number of people that tell me that they didn't realize that rottweilers could herd.
I got my dog from a breeder that has been breeding for more then 20 years. I can trace his pedigree back a long ways. I am fairly certain that he is the first dog in his line to herd in more then ten generations. Yet, he has the instinct and the talent for something he was never bred to do. He was bred to be a show dog and a family companion. He will not use his teeth on a person. He has chest butted threatening people, but never laid a tooth on them (which is more then fine with me).
He was not bred to be vicious and he was not bred to be a herding dog. But he herds like a dream and he isn't vicious. It may be faulty reasoning, but to me, the fact that he is a herding dog tells me a lot about the rottweiler breed and what kind of dog the rottweiler is.

[Knucklesmom]

Hmmm....I have a 5 lb Yorkie that is not allowed to be at my yard sales. I guess he is just too vicious. I certainly wouldn't want him to take anyone's arm off. We needed a guard dog, that's why we got Piper! Yep, those robbers hear that 5 lbs of fury and just run away!

What kind of boat does one use to go garage sailing, anyway????

Quite a bit of self control, Trish - way to go. Sad thing is, you will never convince this idiot that his/her arguments have absolutely no logic or merit.

[CaliRottie]

I've mostly been lurking here, so I'm not sure how to do a quote ... but take a look at this guy's latest post:

"ARC I visited the AKC web site. I did not realize
this was going on. I was a member of the AKC
and all the pups I sold were registered. I now
have mixed feelings about my position. I really
don't like bans and I really oppose punishing
everyone for the actions of a few. I have been
put in that position and I really felt it was unfair.
Just because there is a large percentage of
the jail population black that does not mean
all blacks are bad. I know lumping me in with
others really makes me hot. I am an old man
and there is talk of making the old taking a
test every year and more so since that thing in
California. I think this stinks. So I am going to
have to rethink my position on this one. I am a
firm believer in punishing the guilty only. i
definitly do not want the breeds banned. I just
want the people to consider what they are doing
when they purchase the breed. Life sure gets
complicated sometimes. Thanks for helping
me open my eyes to what is really going on.
EJG "

Yeah, he's a moron. But at least he realizes it now. Not a bad improvement, eh? :)

[TrishB]

Originally posted by CaliRottie
Yeah, he's a moron. But at least he realizes it now. Not a bad improvement, eh? :)

Good! :D And it only took 6 new grey hairs to get him to change his mind!! LMAO Funny how all it takes is a constant "TALK TO THE PROFESSIONALS", and when they do - they learn something!

Onwards and upwards!! :)

Do you have a link to that post CaliRottie? I think I need to respond to him..... ;)