a possible situation.......

[Atti's Mom]

I have a question that Im not sure where to post so to the Moderators, I apoligize if this needs to be moved!

Ok..heres the problem. We are going to my Aunts house in Michigan next month for vacation. (we go every year) This will be Atti's first trip. I'm not worried about Atti, I do think he will do fine but my Aunt and Uncle have 4 dogs of their own.

One of her dogs, a male Australian Shepherd, who is getting a little older (maybe 8 or 9) is definately the Alpha of her bunch and last year I noticed him to be somewhat cranky with us as well as the other dogs.

We will stay in her house and have large and seperate sleeping quarters within.(3 bedrooms that close off from the rest of the house but that open to each other) and I will have Atti on a lead whenever we are out and about but my worry is this...what is the best way to handle it if their dog shows aggression to Atti when we are comming or going?
I am hoping that it wont come to having to keep them completely seperated, we are usually outside fishing, swimming and boating during the day and that won't be a problem because Atti will always be with me and other then to use the bathroom or to swim once in awhile, their dog is inside. But at night or when we are going in and out, if their dog does show aggression, how should I handle it without offending anyone? Also, to let you know, my relatives are very laid back and they love animals. They were at my home for a visit in May and absolutely fell in love with Atti and they INSISTED that we bring him with us when we come up.
Other than the problem I had with the neighbors dog comming into my yard, Atti has never shown any aggression, but because I know he will defend himself, Im a little nervous. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!!! And one more thing....boarding him ir leaving him home are not options. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE!!! :)

[RottnKid1]

First, if you're going to introduce them, do it without any other dogs around and pay close attention to their body language. This will tell you (or should, at least) if a confrontation is imminent. If all goes well, I still suggest that you don't let Atti out with the other dog while any other dogs are in the vicinity as the Aussie will become more defensive and it could turn into a real brawl. Most times when there's a fight, especially when more than two dogs are involved, they'll all converge on the underdog (no pun intended) and this is really a nightmare. I hope all goes well!

If Atti and the Aussie "show face" right from the outset, be sure both are on lead and kept at a safe distance from one another. Use Atti's obedience training to keep him closely at heel and correct him if he acts up no matter what the other dog is "saying." My dogs are trained to ignore ill-behaved dogs and you can teach Atti the same thing since he's not dog aggressive. It's a lot harder and requires much more work if you start off with a dog who already displays aggression.

[Atti's Mom]

Thanks RottnKid1!!!! :) Another question though.....Is there anyway to start working with him now as far as the ignoring part?? He does a great job of ignoring the neighbor dog and listening to commands now, but we have been keeping them from getting close enough to start a fight. (there is about an acre between us) and when the other dog starts into our yard, we immediately put Atti in a down/stay, and make the other one go back to his own yard. As long as the other dog stays in his yard, Atti doesn't pay any attention, but as soon as he crosses the tree line, Atti goes into the defense mode, but we still haven't had any problem with him not listening to us. What scares me is how he will react if my Aunts dog goes after him. I have not had the experience of another dog showing aggression towards him in close quarters. When the shepherd next door got too close the last time, Hubby was with him and from what I understand, Atti did great until the shepherd went at him (Atti) barking and growling and trying to bite, and then ,out of self defense, Atti proceeded to kick the dogs a$$ till hubby and neighbor broke them up.

[RottnKid1]

Has the neighbor's dog ever gone after Atti? If not, it seems Atti can have some territorial tendencies - not unusual, but still something you'll want to work on in the future.

To work on training Atti to ignore a dog who's carrying on towards him in an aggressive manner, you'll need to find such a dog. Do you know anyone who has a dog aggressive dog and who you would completely trust to help you out by securely holding the dog while you pass by with Atti? You should begin at somewhat of a distance, correcting Atti if he reacts and praising him when he ignores the dog. You'll work your way closer doing the same thing until you can pass by with Atti ignoring the dog on a regular basis.

If the dog at your Aunt's is aggressive to Atti, they should both be leashed when in each others presence.

As for the incident with the Shepherd, I can't fault Atti for that. If a dog attacks him, it's only natural for him to protect himself and the same would hold true with your Aunt's dog. Barking is one thing, but making contact (or trying to) in an attempt to fight is another story.

BTW, a dog will feel more vulnerable in a down position. It seems to be working for you at home with the neighbor's dog, so I guess "if it's not broken, don't fix it." Normally, I'd recommend a sit/stay.

Sorry I haven't gone into a lot of detail, but my left hand won't work at all and it's hard to type with one hand.

[ July 17, 2001: Message edited by: RottnKid1 ]

[Mattweiser]

When male dogs have an "Alpha Discussion" it is usually resolved with little to no injury to either dog... You ststed that Atti is not dog agressive, I will assume that your mother's Aussie is not either, since they have multiple dogs.... I would just let them work it out (of course with your supervision)

It has been my limited experience that if you allow males to greet each other with leashes on.. somehow, they have a much harder time saying hello properly...

also keep in mind that if this aussie is an older alpha.. he will be reluctant to give up his status.... but bigger, younger, stronger dogs are supposed to be the alpha ;) ...

-Matt

[Mattweiser]

personal experience:

took my boy (2yr intact male) to in-laws..

they have a
6-yr old female (not sure what she is)
a 15-18 yr old tiny little male terrier
and a 6 month Rott-Mix....

the little terrier was the alpha (had been for over 10 years)....let's just say he didn't care for my boy too much.. :p ..oh well.... within 10 minutes, my dog had taken over the water bowl, and the spot under the porch.... plus the female was following him all over the place..

I actually felt kinda bad for the old guy... :D ..... but that is how it goes... there was a little growling, the terrier tried to snap at my boys face a couple of times (didn't hurt him) then my boy jumped up and flatened the terrier with his front paws... he yelped and limped away.... but he was ok.. we checked him..... after that, the terrier just avoided my dog for the rest of the visit (1 week)...

hope this helps

-Matt

[RottnKid1]

I'd introduce them on lead, but hold the leashes with some slack. If dogs are introduced on tightly held leads then it can make the situation more tense, but if the dogs have a good possibility of getting into a confrontation, you'll definately want to be able to quickly get them away from each other. Atti's Mom mentioned that the Aussie can tend to be cranky. The good part of this is that the Aussie is a female, so a fight is less likely.

Quote

Mattweiser When male dogs have an "Alpha Discussion" it is usually resolved with little to no injury to either dog... You ststed that Atti is not dog agressive, I will assume that your mother's Aussie is not either, since they have multiple dogs.... I would just let them work it out (of course with your supervision)


You're lucky you didn't have to break up the "discussions" at my house between Tacoma and Shiloh, Tacoma and Scorpio and especially Tacoma and Boss. All told, vet bills exceeded $600.00 - most of that for Tacoma who was the aggressor. He was a rescue and had lived with us for over a year when he began working his way through my males, one at a time. Sometimes fights don't stop until there's only one dog left standing. :(

[ July 17, 2001: Message edited by: RottnKid1 ]

[Mattweiser]

Traci,

That is unfortunate about your dogs... But I did say usually. It is possible that your Tacoma is the exception...

You are right, that anything can happen... and one should always be cautious... but I think that Atti's Mom is worrying for no reason... the dog has not shown itself to be dog-agressive (one fight with another dog who barged into its territory doesn't count as dog-agression in my book) yet

[Atti's Mom]

Thanks a bunch Matt & Rottn!!!
I just wanted to clarify a couple things though, My Aunts Aussie is a male,and yeah, he is getting older and can be cranky at times. I noticed last year when we were there, he snapped at people and my Aunts other dogs when he became excited or nervous.(he is basically used to my Aunt, Uncle and their kids and grandkids, but with my family and my parents there you add another 7 people)
He was always fine with all of us together every year, until last year.
As for the question that Rottn asked about the possibility of Atticus being territorial, In all honesty, I'm not sure.The situation with the neighbor's dog goes like this.....The nieghbors shepherd is 4 years old. When we moved here two years ago, Our house had stood empty for 2 years before we got it and the shepherd considered our yard his territory. We started breaking him of comming over but he still did on occasion anyway. Then we got Atti.....I didn't find out until recently, but when Atti was little, my brother in law would take Atti out in our yard with his GSD and if neighbor dog came over, he would kick Atti's butt and brother in law would let him saying that one day, Atti would get bigger and the tables would turn!! Needless to say, I can't repeat my reaction to that news because this is a "G" rated forum, but furious is not a strong enough word to describe it!!! Anyway, every time we have had an altercation between Atti and neighbors dog, it has been because the other dog will charge through the trees at Atti across our yard..in our yard!!
When we have had Atti out for socialization, to class, the park, or places like Petsmart, we have never had a problem with him, no growling or barking or anything, just the occasional whining if he see's another dog that he can't get close enough to in order to "make friends" with. ;)
Anyway, thank you so much for your help!! Im going to do as you suggested, and make sure that Atti and my Aunts dog meet without the other dogs around and both on lead!!! And supervise at all times to see how things go! Anything else you may think of that may help, PLEASE!! let me know!!!!! I still have a few weeks before we go, we are going up for the race the weekend of August 19th! ;) :) THANKS AGAIN!!! :)

[Judi W]

Most dogs are quite respectful when they know they are on someone else's patch. I would expect Atti to follow that pattern assuming he has been socialized with other dogs and speaks "dog". It is a courtesy they extend to the "owner" of the property and they also usually accord respect to their elders. The problems usually arrive when they are both the owners of the property and contesting for who is on top.