Giving you their eye

[TrishB]

Parker has always been good about 'giving me his eye'. By saying that, I mean that he willingly gives me his attention, I never have to ask. He's always watching me.

I had wanted a conformation / obedience prospect. His look says he can do conformation, his 'eye' or attention to me says he can compete in obedience.

Here's the problem: I don't want to discourage him looking at me and offering his attention to me. But if he does this in the conformation ring, it ruins his profile and can influence his movement.

I don't want to sacrifice one for the other.

So for those of you who show both Obedience and Conformation, how do you encourage that shift? Do you have to sacrifice one for the other? Can it only be achieved by having a handler for Conformation and you do Obedience? I'd prefer to do it all together.

Your comments will be appreciated! :)

[BostonRott]

Very simple: use different collars and leashes for both your training and your events.

Reward attention in obedience.

Reward correct stance in breed.

If you ignore the attention in breed handling, it will not be rewarded and the behaviour will die down. It takes time, but it will work.

Build in cue words, phrases the tell the dog which is coming up next.

Also be sure you're rewarding the correct stance on an equal frequency as you are attention. If you're rewarding attention more, he's going to try that more, as it's a successful behaviour.

[Judi W]

I find it is more body language than anything. My stance, position in relation to the dog etc. is quite different when I say "let's go" for gaiting than when I stand exactly facing foward and say "heel"............ Likewise when coming in to a stop, I turn my body quarter turn just before we are ready to stop, step out front and bait the dog or ask for expression whereas in obedience, I come to a halt without any swinging out of line of progress or moving of the hands and arms,.......... "look pretty" means set your feet and give me ears........

[LynnS]

Hi Trish

Here is the advice I received...(no longer applicable since we won't be showing in the conformation arena). Since Parker is only a puppy, you might want to go easy on him and work on a heel without the cranked neck attention required in the ob ring. You can always add the watch me command later on. You can still practice *watch me* as a stand alone command and then in combination with other commands. Judi can prob weigh in here with some better advice but this worked for us...That and teaching Bella to stand on voice command helped a lot.

By the way GOOD LUCK this weekend!!! I can't wait to here the report on Parker's debut!

[LynnS]

Oops Judi beat me to it
I was going to add that we use a separate heel and lets go command as well (really! I was! :D )

[SABELLESMOM]

Now, I'm probably way off base here but let me pose another question. I show Sable in conformation and she's been doing quite well. I've never competed obedience but we have a working knowlege of it and we've had classes.
Sable does not crane her neck and look at me continually, and I'm curious why it's important. Is it? She does everything as well as any other animal in the ring: Turns when I turn, stop when I stop, etc. (I do not have her sit, because I want no sitting in the ring...she stands!)
My understanding was she picks up in me in another way, the pace of my steps when I'm about to stop or something. Whatever it is it works.
I answer to the original question: She knows what collar she has on and responds accordingly.

[Judi W]

and.........

That cranked head position which will really throw the front off on a shorter and thick necked dog such as the Rottweiler, is NOT required in obedience and if it interfers, can cost points. Heel position is the dog's position in reference to the handlers leg (between nose and neck is to be by the handler's side) and has nothing to do with watching the handler's face. soooo, relax on that account. Dogs have perfectly good periphial vision and are acutely aware of any motion beside them. Just as I can walk down the sidewalk beside you and know where I am in relationship to you without cranking my head around to stare at your face, the dog can easily maintain heel position without staring at your face.

For those who want that type of heeling, it is fine and they train for it, but it is in no way described as desired let alone required
in the AKC obedience regulations.

BTW, most of our dogs are smart enough to learn the words "stand" "stay" or "sit" "stay" and can easily do obedience as well as conformation.

[SABELLESMOM]

Thanks Judi W!! Since I've never competed in obedience, I thought perhaps I'd missed something. Whew! I'm glad we're OK.

A number of my friends do both show and obedience. They love both so much. Sable would be capable, I think. Those friends have asked from time to time if I'm not interested.

I like the level of training it affords us. I'm not sure I have enough time as yet to devote to both in terms of competition. I enjoy the handling most so far, so that's what we do.

[Judi W]

Yeah, but how mentally challenging is it for the dog after it has learned to stand still, look pretty, eat liver and trott around the ring????????

I usually put the CD on while I am waiting for the dog to body out. Handlers love a dog that understands "stay";)

[SABELLESMOM]

Of course it's more mentally challenging. :) I just said we don't "compete" at it. We've also dabbled in agility. But just for something fun to do.

[BostonRott]

Whether or not you ask for the dog to look at you during obedience is definitely a preference. There are many who feel that to have a top level competition dog (195+ on regular basis), that it is needed.

Dogs are EXCELLENT at picking up on body cues. However, if they're not watching you, you could turn while they're staring across the building and they may get a half step behind your (or bump you on a left turn) and that will cost you points.

I have a friend who cues her dog with her eyes alone. Head and shoulder turns that are too noticable can get you nailed for handler help. Obviously, you are to be moving naturally, but the movements that you can make in the breed ring are more drastic than what you could get away with in obedience (at times). When Janice is turning left, her eyes look left and the dog reads it, adjusts pace and stays perfectly in heel position.

It all depends what you're aiming for! :)

[LynnS]

This thread is really informative. I was under the impression that your dog had to look up at you in the heel position (for comp obedience). I know that is not as natural for Rotties to crank their necks like some other breeds but I did not realize that they in fact don't have to appear to be watching you while heeling at all... I need to watch more of the ob ring work.

[fbkeays]

My current obedience instructor is also an AKC obedience judge. She will ding a dog that has its head cranked around for being OUT of heel position. She is a very tough judge:D She does not believe that the dog can be in heel position and have that cranked head. She thinks that is the cause of neck problems and the boon to the animal chiropratic pratice.

[Judi W]

You are correct. Many judges consider it crowding and interferance. (I think the BC people started it :D and some got very high scores so now everyone seems to believe that is the road to a high score).

Heel position according to AKC:

Section 18. Heel Position. The heel position as defined in these Regulations, applies whether the dog is sitting, standing, lying down, or moving at heel. The dog should be straight in line with the direction in which the handler is facing, at the handler's left side. The area from the dog's head to shoulder is to be in line with the handler's left hip. The dog should be close, but not crowding, so that the handler has freedom of motion at all times.

As you can see, there could be a real question as to whether a cranked head and neck are in a "straight line".

Looking at it from a long term position, movement in the wrapped position throws the elbows out of position and restricts reach and twists the front always in the same unnatural direction, which I personally believe can have long term consequences. Like I said, it is not necessary and I believe can even be detrimental to the dog.