Stability, where art thou?

[Dei]

If you need to hear the growl first, you need to have a standing appointment with the plastic surgeon. My patient is a horrendously overweight rottie who has been brought in for a bad case of bloody diarrhea...and I need to walk him. He isn't growling, no, but his eyes, his stiffness and the way he moves his head away every time I'm even close to it tells me that he's a hair away from losing it completely. I'm very aware that I'm crouching before an open cage and am not in the best position to move quickly if I have to. The walk does go uneventfully, fortunately...but there's four daily walks to do. And he's not getting any better each time.


And this dog is the typical of the rottie that I see at the clinic I work at as a vet assistant. Yes, I wish to voice a complaint about the actual state that I see. Perhaps it's evil to judge only from the dozen dogs I've seen in the past seven weeks, but it does give me a first impression. In no case did Cujo walk in the door -- all the dogs were more or less freindly, socialized and okay...so long as everything was absolutely perfect. The moment things started going not so perfectly -- like they found themselves in a cage or with strange people, procedures, etc, etc, I'm afraid that what comes out is that they show themselves to be small, scared dogs inside. And small, scared dogs who just happen to know that they weigh 100 lbs and have 42 sharp teeth. I'm still holding out for the rottweiler who can face a stressful situation and take it in stride without freaking out -- like the dog who flew into a panic over absolutely every new sound and sight.

I'm serious here. It's becoming increasingly clear to me that stability truly begins when the environment isn't so secure.

I know that there are stable Rotties out there, I've even met a few in the past, but where are they now?

Sorry. I had to get that off my chest. And go see if Clyde is any better...

[MARYDVM]

Sometimes you can get a really high incidence of bad temperaments concentrated in one area thanks to the efforts of a local backyard breeder. I worked in a practice where this was true for GSDs. One very busy BYB with extremely unsound dogs supplied several others with "foundation" stock. 9 out of 10 GSDs walking through the doors were dangerous fear biters.

There are good temperaments out there, sometimes in the most unlikely places. I just put an 11 week old Rottie puppy that was born in our shelter on a plane east yesterday. From the day she opened her eyes this pup never backed away from anything. She is also very dominant, a "talker" that requires gentle but intense training. She's gone to live with some very good friends who have 25 years of experience in the breed. They will turn what could have been a disaster in the wrong hands into a credit to the breed. The 6 hour flight never fazed this puppy. She bounced out of her crate at the airport and into her first snowbank with enthusiasm. This is the kind of temperament I love, but not the kind an average pet owner could deal with.

[SarasMom]

Originally posted by MARYDVM:
<STRONG>She is also very dominant, a "talker" that requires gentle but intense training. The 6 hour flight never fazed this puppy. She bounced out of her crate at the airport and into her first snowbank with enthusiasm. This is the kind of temperament I love, but not the kind an average pet owner could deal with.</STRONG>

Wow, does that sound familiar. :) Describes my Sara to a "T". I took a bunch of cleaning supplies to the airport because I thought I might find an airsick or scared puppy when I picked her up. Hahaha the joke was on me. I opened the crate, and out bounced a clean, totally brash and confident pup, who immediately started biting me all over! :D I knew I had a job on my hands at that very moment. Sara had to be reminded of who was boss every day for 2 years.

Her confidence level is still breathtaking. She was with me when I was rear-ended by a semi 3 years ago. While many dogs freak out or try to run away in such a situation, she calmly sat on the seat and obeyed every command.

She was a challenge to raise, but it was all worth it. We're in our 4th year with TDI. :)

[Hope]

Just a thought, when you know that you are going to the dentist to have an extraction, or how about when you are ready to roll into a surgery, or maybe you are ready to walk into a biopsy for breast cancer, do you go in full of confidence and glee? When you cry before facing these instances, scared, unwilling, does that make you a less confident and strong person, does that make you weak tempered? Just wondering?

[Paxx]

I am moving this to General Info.

[rottweiler_fancier]

I think its gotta be something about the vets office. My GSD will charge into a park, explore new things easily, but you have to DRAG her into the vets office.

I think its got to do part with the placement of the themometer...when we get her in the office, the first thing she does is SITS squarely down and won't budge without a fork life.

I know, I know, she won't win Obedience Dog of the Year....I loose count but I think this is the 4th or 5th Obedience Class Series. She's usually the only returning student. :o

But she's got a good temperament. She's never bitten anyone and is usually very confident - its just that Vets office that makes her tail tuck (not literally).

[Dina's Mom]

Today was perfect timing for me to reply. Dina and I visited the vet's office today for her periodic BG check. We are called to go into room #1. Dina walks into the room and out the other door where the vet usually comes in, to the scale. She sits on the scale until someone comes along to read and record her weight. When they say "o.k" she gets off the scale and back into the examining room. This is all done on her own without any direction from me or the staff.

After a few minutes the vet tech comes in with a syringe and a tourniquette she sits on the floor next to Dina - and Dina extends her foreleg! She sits calmly while they poke and prod (she has very bad veins) until they can get some blood.

The vets and their staff just can't believe she's a rott!

Now maybe it's because she's been there so many times for a lot of different things that she's just become accustomed to all of this. But even as a puppy, she was very good at the vets.

Although, I do see the point the Dei is trying to make because my pupppy rottie, Roxy, is nothing like Dina. She is going to need a LOT of training!

The fact still remains that dogs with this type of strength need responsible owners, a lot of training and a lot of love.

[Dei]

Hope: if all dogs freaked out like that, I'd say it was the vet's -- it isn't a very nice place to be, all said and done. But we have all manner of dogs, from Yorkies to Great Danes. And while the majority of our patients are small because the clinic is in Manhattan, we still see loads of pits, American Bulldogs, different sorts of mastiffs, the occasional dobe and rotties. They *all* come for stressful things, and alas, rotties are at the bottom of the sound temperament list. I really hate to say this, but so far, I've met more nice Chows.

I'm beginning to really see the value of having a Courage Test as an integral part of testing the temperament of a breeding dog.

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz:
<STRONG>...however the facts are that the breed is declining in proper temperament at an alarming rate.

Believe me; Dei isn't exaggerating when she speaks of the "if I had a tail; I'd tuck it" temperaments that are the rule rather than the exception :(

</STRONG>

It is so true and so sad :(

[RottnKid1]

Back yard breeders have something to do with this, but I think part of the problem also stems from the bad reputation that Rottweilers now have - people are breeding for softer temperaments, which also effects other aspects of what is considered a proper temperament for a Rottweiler.

At the risk of being lambasted, I will also say that some of the blame for this rests on our shoulders - those of us who post on this forum and verbalize our opinions and attempt to educate anyone who will listen. We go on and on about how powerful and potentially aggressive, dominant and deadly Rottweilers can be. We present Rottweilers as though they are not even comparable to any other breed of canine. I'm as guilty of this as anyone else, so I'm not pointing a finger at anyone. The bottom line is that Rottweilers are still dogs. There are other breeds who were developed for many of the same characteristics as the Rottweiler. In the wrong hands, they can be dangerous, but they aren't hellhounds. Just imagine what Chihauhauas (just an example, no offense to the breed), would be like if they had the build of a Rottweiler! We need to educate people about the potential danger of the Rottweiler if not socialized and trained properly, but we have to stop presenting them as though they were some other species and scaring people into attempting to change the basic temperament and characteristics of the breed as it was meant to be.

Time and again, we see owners who are new to the breed posting about young pups who are mouthy or who growl when being made to do something that the pup doesn't want to do. I think if these same people were raising a Golden Retriever, this behavior wouldn't scare them nearly as much. I've had all kinds of dogs in my lifetime, from mixed breeds to Irish Setters. I've never had a pup yet who didn't exhibit these same behaviors. Yes, Rottweilers were bred to be protective and to think independently, but proper socialization and training (and breeding) will, in most cases, allow them to function in society just as well as the next breed. It's not that Rottweilers have higher bite statistics than all other breeds, it's that they are capable of doing a lot more damage when they do attack.

[ April 01, 2001: Message edited by: RottnKid1 ]

[Hope]

IT is one thing when you are talking about fear in different situations. think about it, if your child were suddenly accosted by someone in public, would you run, no, you would protect with your life. This is what we would expect a very well trained protection dog to do, to go in there and do his job, protect while the fear still exists, to be able to overcome the need to flee in order to fight off an attacker.

But the vet's office is different. The fear is still there, and sometimes the pain can be so bad that we don't exactly want to just take it. It is a completely different enviroment, one where the dog is not protecting the master, but himself, and I for one wouldn't stick out my arm and tell the doctor, "go ahead, I was really looking forward to this all day long!!!".

Nobody needs to preach to me about temperment and BYBs, and God knows that this breed is being ruined in this country and who knows where else, but I have to say that the vet's office is a really traumatic place for a dog to be, so to come down on any breed for their behavior in a vet's office, I think that it is a little harsh. Sometimes I think we expect our dogs to be like us, willing to grin and bare it all the time.

And, that brings me to another point, if what you are saying is that poorly bred dogs with bad tempers are the dogs that enter the vet's office, does that mean that All sport and working dogs with good lines and temperments act great all the time at the vet's office? Does it mean that a dog that acts poorly in a vet's office has no chance of actually protecting its family if trained to do so?

I don't agree that vets and their assistants should be in fear for their lives when a rottweiler walks in the door, but I also think that we should sympathize a little with the fear that these dogs endure in a vet's office? Dog's dont walk into the vet's office thinking, "gee, this will make me feel so much better today", no, they go in fearing the needles, the thermometers being place where the sun don't shine, and people that poke and prod them. And yet, we complain when they dont like it. Sorry, but I think that this is a situation where temperment is not the only issue.

[WorkinDogz]

Sorry Hope. A dog with a stable temperament DOES NOT do any of the things you just talked about.

They don't have to be dragged into any office no matter what "history" is there. They don't pee on the table or try to drag the owner out the door.

A stable dog is CONFIDENT under any circumstances and any conditions.

I'm not surprised by your response though. Most dogs today do JUST what you talk about.

And it's a sorry shame that they do.

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz:
<STRONG>Sorry Hope. A dog with a stable temperament DOES NOT do any of the things you just talked about.

They don't have to be dragged into any office no matter what "history" is there. They don't pee on the table or try to drag the owner out the door.

A stable dog is CONFIDENT under any circumstances and any conditions.

I'm not surprised by your response though. Most dogs today do JUST what you talk about.

And it's a sorry shame that they do.</STRONG>

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by RottnKid1:
<STRONG>... but we have to stop presenting them as though they were some other species and scaring people into attempting to change the basic temperament and characteristics of the breed as it was meant to be.

...It's not that Rottweilers have higher bite statistics than all other breeds, it's that they are capable of doing a lot more damage when they do attack.

</STRONG>

As hard as it may be for some people to understand, the truth remains that the Rottweiler breed is NOT for everybody. Just as much as an Akita, Bullmastiff, Neapolitan mastiff, Dogo Argentino, Doberman Pinscher, Fila Brasileiro, Belgian Malinois, German Shepherd, American Pitbull Terrier, and so many other dogs, that fall in the hands of the inexperienced, the negligent, the irresponsible, the mentally unstable, the profiteer, and so forth.

The reality of it is that many dog breeds are not suitable for just any dog owner, least of all for everybody. So that's the message I spread around ;)

As far as bites incidents is concerned, the problem is when a Golden Labrador bites someone, that is bad. BUT, when a Rottweiler does, the damage may be horrendous, and dying from such attack is possible. So we cannot downplay the sheer power and strenght of a real Rottweiler. THAT, would be a mistake ;)

[ April 01, 2001: Message edited by: German Vanegas ]

[damp]

Originally posted by Hope:
<STRONG>

And, that brings me to another point, if what you are saying is that poorly bred dogs with bad tempers are the dogs that enter the vet's office, does that mean that All sport and working dogs with good lines and temperments act great all the time at the vet's office? Does it mean that a dog that acts poorly in a vet's office has no chance of actually protecting its family if trained to do so?

I don't agree that vets and their assistants should be in fear for their lives when a rottweiler walks in the door, but I also think that we should sympathize a little with the fear that these dogs endure in a vet's office? Dog's dont walk into the vet's office thinking, "gee, this will make me feel so much better today", no, they go in fearing the needles, the thermometers being place where the sun don't shine, and people that poke and prod them. And yet, we complain when they dont like it. Sorry, but I think that this is a situation where temperment is not the only issue.</STRONG>

I agree with you WorkinDogz and German.

When/if we sympathize with the dog’s fear, and fell so sorry for the dog, just because it is taken to the vet for it’s shots or what ever… yes the dog has a “good reason” to be scared. No we shall NOT ( and never ever) sympathize with the dog’s fear. A vet visit (even it hurts) should be a naturally thing and a part of being a dog.

Yes, I think 99% of sport and protection dogs have real good experience with vet’s visits. (Am I right WorkinDogz? ;))

Some of my dogs have really been in pain when coming to the vet, before and after surgeries. None of my dogs have never been muzzled or had sedative medicine for examinations or hip X-rays.
My old dog was in so much pain and walked on three legs, when his 18 stitches were removed. Because the vet knocked his hands on the table and said: “Do think we can get you up here” – we all got a BIG CHOCK, when Carlos in the same second tried to jump up on the table.

[ April 01, 2001: Message edited by: damp ]