american ban dog?

[amano the indian flautist]

Could someone tell me what an american ban dog is.I've heard of spanish ban dogs which are "really tough lethal ad nauseam blah blah"back in the eighties.But I've never heard of "american ban dog"

[sumo]

hello amano! an american bandog is the mix of a large pit bull terrier with a neopolitan mastiff...it is a breed that backyard guys are trying to start...it is still in the developmental stages though...some breeders even cross the bullmastiff with the pitbull and call them american bandogs...there is no breed standard as of yet...the breeders say that these are the ultimate fighting/protection dogs...i think the whole breeding/creation of bandogs is a load of garbage...the desired result is a dog that resembles a Cane Corso...surf the net...there are a few informative sites... :)

[Diane Heller-Vaccaro]

The mastiff sites refer to the bandog as the "banmutt", infact many sites won't allow the bandog to be discussed at all, simply because it does nothing to preserve anyone breed. The real problem is the unpredictability that occurs when certain breeds are mixed. I strongly believe that genetics play a major role in personality development.

[WorkinDogz]

Bandogs are not a "new" thing. A Veterinarian by the name of Swinford (in his efforts to create the ultimate protection dog) came up with this "breed".

There's a book that gives a great deal of background on the Bandog and other dogs that were bred to fight called "The World of Fighting Dogs" by Dr. Carl Semencic.

It's quite interesting reading.

Even when the book was published years ago; the controvery surrounded the "wanna be's" trying to replicate a breed in their backyard without knowing the how's and why's.

[Ramon]

I did some reading about the Swinford Bandog in Dave Putnam's book "The Working American Bulldog".
According to that book, the Bandog was a combination of Neapolitan Mastiff, English Mastiff, and Pit. In the first couple generations, they succeeded in getting 125-180 pound dogs that could fight with the best. But after the 3rd or 4th generation, each generation would shrink in size and look more like Pits! They had to add more Mastiff blood in the later generations to go back to the larger size.
It's interesting how Pitbull blood tends to dominate. For years, many people have been trying to make a bigger pitbull but have failed.

[WorkinDogz]

Oh I don't know about that Ramon...

If you ever get a chance to look at the APBT Gazette...you'll see a particular "kennel" (name does involve "Giants") that consistantly produces oversized, enormous Pit Bulls.

Personally; I think it's PATHETIC (considering that some of the most famed APBT'S were a mere 30lbs and some under!) and those people are as WHACKED as the mutants they produce.

[amano the indian flautist]

I am happy to hear this and that answers my question. :D
But I just don't know about dog fighting
why don't they go to painting classes or something ;)

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by sumo:
hello amano! an american bandog is the mix of a large pit bull terrier with a neopolitan mastiff...it is a breed that backyard guys are trying to start...it is still in the developmental stages though...

I disagree. As WokingDogz pointed out already, the American Bandog is a crafted creation by a veterinarian named John Swinford DVM, out of Massachusetts in the early 1960's. This veterinarian crossed several tenacious breeds by carefully selecting the breeding stock to produce a consistent desired phenotype. Some of the breeds used in Swinford's Bandog project were the English mastiff, Bullmastiff, American Pitbull Terrier and even the English Bulldog. Swinford was successful in creating a fine new breed, which is known as the "Swinford Bandog". This dog has a sound temperament, intense drives, the desire to please its master, great courage and a is a superb guard dog. Luckily for this breed is not very popular... yet. It looks like an overgrown "pitbull", thus making novices in the canine world get easily discouraged in getting a "Bandog". Indeed this breed is not for everybody, trust me!

In the mid eighties, Joseph Lucero III, a breeder and protection dog specialist out of California, who was fond on Rottweilers, decided to create his own line of bandogs. Lucero hand picked the best genetic specimens from the Neapolitan mastiff and American Pitbull Terrier and started a breeding program that was also very successful. After more than 20 generations, Lucero established a new line that he called the American Bandog mastiff. This new breed has become relatively more popular than Swinford's Bandog, although still is not well-known. Lucero's Bandog is a phenomenal breed, very athletic, very intelligent, and protection capable. Joe Lucero and his "right-hand" Sammy Holloway have competed with their bandogs in obedience and protection rings with awesome results! However, I do not recommend this breed for just anyone. The Bandog is more dog than most people can handle. It is a dog for the truly experienced dog handler.

As far as those "Giant" pitbulls in the East Coast, close to N.Y., I agree with WorkingDogz: those "pits" have been "blended" ;) :D

By the way, the term bandog comes from the Old English lenguage, which it was used referring to guard dogs tied out during the day and let loose at night to protect and guard lives and estates.

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by sumo:
...the desired result is a dog that resembles a Cane Corso...

I am very suspicious about the origen of the Cane Corso. To me, from my own personal research and inquiry, it is the result from crossing Neapolitan mastiffs, Rottweilers, "pitbulls", some breeders even "threw" Boxers in the "gene pool".The Cane Corso is suppossedly this "ancient breed" that nobody knew about it until the late 1980's... For centuries it was the "biggest top secret" from the rest of the world... IF you can believe that crap, of course!LMAO!!!! :D

[Diane Heller-Vaccaro]

The bandogs that are gaining in popularity aren't those carefully bred and carefully selected. They are more likely to be a product of any 2 dogs thrown together for the purpose of creating the ultimate killing machine and enduring terrible treatment. Which is exactly what happened in CA. Right now there are 2 types of people reading that article those that would NEVER own a dog like that and see no purpose for the dog and the pinheads running around trying to find the ultimate guard dog. This is what has hurt many breeds.

[ February 06, 2001: Message edited by: Diane Heller ]

[ February 06, 2001: Message edited by: Diane Heller ]

[Ramon]

Workingdogz,
I've seen those ads for large pitbulls. I've read there are some strains of pitbulls (like the Colby pitbull) that get to be around 100-lbs, although they are less game than the smaller ones. I think Swinford was trying to produce a dog the size of the Neo Mastiff, which is bigger still.

One interesting tidbit I got from my readings is that they got the best results when crossing male Neos to female pits, not the other way around. I guess the Y chromosome must be linked to some important genes.

[ February 06, 2001: Message edited by: Ramon ]

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Diane Heller:
... Right now there are 2 types of people reading that article those that would NEVER own a dog like that and see no purpose for the dog and the pinheads running around trying to find the ultimate guard dog. This is what has hurt many breeds.

Well, in regards to those "pinheads", or "oooopsholes", no matter what we state or what FACTS we want to share, they do not listen anyway. They think they "know it all". Sadly enough, those kinds of people are ruining many dog breeds, some of them to the point of no return :(

However, allow me to clarify that ethical reputable Bandog breeders are far from "backyard" breeders. Although is true that just crossbreding (or mating dogs at random) in MOST cases creates mutts (some of them from "hell"), it is also true that a handful of KNOWLEDGEABLE Bandog breeders have achieved worthwhile results in producing outstanding bandogs. Again, a well-bred Bandog is a force to be reckon with and a proven working dog, make no mistake about it.

The problem still is that many "wannabe" breeders believe that is about just crossing a "Neo with a pit" and, Viola! a "guard dog" is made. THAT'S WRONG! VERY WRONG! How pitiful, but it happens all too often :(

For the record, in my personal opinion, Rotties rule! :)

[ February 06, 2001: Message edited by: German Vanegas ]

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by amano the indian flautist:
German please tell me more about the sociability of luceros and swinfords dogs ;)

Amano,
Just like any other dog breed, IF you know what you are doing, then you socialize a bandog puppy just as you would with any other dog breed. Although, socialization is particularly important when the dog is large, powerful, and bred with a strong protection and guarding trait. However, Bandogs, as well as Rottweilers, are strong-willed, somewhat dominant and wary of strangers, so you really have to become the leader of the pack from the very beginning or you will create your own liability. BE AWARE: Bandogs are not for just anybody... just like Rotties

[WorkinDogz]

Ramon...

For years and years Cobly Kennels (who suffered a tremendous loss in a fire in the not so distant past..I believe 2 years ago?) "used" to be THE kennel and strain of APBT that WAS the standard of the breed.

When the original owner passed the torch down; it seems that the breeding program did indeed suffer the "bigger just has to be better..afterall; that's what Joe Public WANTS" thing.

There are still "protectors" of the original standard that was set by the Colby strain....but you won't see any of them (males) go over 50lbs. EVER.

Amano,

"The World of Fighting Dogs" isn't a "how to" manual; it's a very well written and informative book on the different breeds that throughout HISTORY were bred for no other reason than to fight. (yep..like it or not; there are breeds out there whos' SOLE REASON FOR EXISTING was for fighting.)

It really is an insight into the world of different "power breeds" and will make you even MORE convinced that people DON'T HAVE A CLUE what they're babbling about when they talk about "good" Pit Bulls being dog-friendly and "sweethearts" around other dogs....and only the "bad" Pit Bulls, Akita's, Tosa's, Neo's etc are dog aggressive.

It's all in the genes...and the reason for being. To me; the book is a "must read" for everyone.

[amano the indian flautist]

Originally posted by German Vanegas:
I am very suspicious about the origen of the Cane Corso. To me, from my own personal research and inquiry, it is the result from crossing Neapolitan mastiffs, Rottweilers, "pitbulls", some breeders even "threw" Boxers in the "gene pool".The Cane Corso is suppossedly this "ancient breed" that nobody knew about it until the late 1980's... For centuries it was the "biggest top secret" from the rest of the world... IF you can believe that crap, of course!LMAO!!!! :D

great posts german
:D
The more I learn the merrier I am
I once saw a cross ten years ago of an emglish mastiff and rottweiler.It was very beautiful looking like a huge rott with a tiger brindle orange kind of coat.
I do not find cane corso extremely attractive
I am interested in all the "ultimate"protection dogs but the rottweiler is the best choice for me because of it's adherence to calmness,sociability and very high chess playing intelligence :D
It is also just about the right size for me to afford a very healthy diet,one of those giant thingys from swinford would cost far too much to feed.And one does not know how much even temperament and easy going sociability has been bred into those particular gene pools.I do know for definite that a well socialised non hyper,hard working,super fit and healthy rottweiler would be the best choice for me.
Perhaps those big dogs would be better later on if I become a movie star or win the lottery ;) :D or have afew more years experience on the field with rotts.Cos only a nutcase would take such a formidable dog