Horrible Dog:Dog Attack - what would you do?

[Sansano]

Originally posted by patton_jr
It was driving me nuts! I always checked to see if someday you would actually have a site...but nothing! LOL

So, what was the situation?

Well, it's more than a situation. Basically my first incling that something was up was around the age of 2. I was at a friends house who also has a Rottie bitch. Cheyenne had played with her many times and Cheyenne was fairly submissive to her. One day we were in the backyard and they were 'playing' . All of a sudden I realised they weren't playing and also realised Cheyenne was being the aggressor. I grabbed her by the back of her legs and had my freind grab her bitch. We seperated the 2 without much damage but I know she would have continued if I wasn't there. The scary thing is even though right after that the other bitch showed all kinds of submissive behaviour Cheyenne still wanted to take her out. Someone on here posted a great comment and now I totally understand what it meant : "Dogs fight to posture, Bitches fight to eliminate." There is nothing nastier than 2 bitches going at it IMO. Anyway after that I was on my guard. And it was obvious anytime we were around bitches that Cheyenne wanted to discipline them. I had one other incident in class where I had my guard down and Cheyenne 'pot shotted' another bitch who locked down on her. Usually it's not a problem but if they do lock eyes with her then it could be. Through inccredible amounts of training I have convinced her that it is in her best interests to not even THINK about attacking another bitch in my presence. I was able to title her to a CD which included sits and downs with bitches within 3 feet. That being said, there is no way she could live with another bitch. They would need to be seperated at all times. Another note, please don't assume your bitch will tolerate another bitch just becasue she plays ok at an earyl age. Cheyenne showed no signs of this type of aggression until she matured. I know of others that didn't do anything until 3 or 4.

[patton_jr]

Good stuff!

Thanks for the thoughts regarding puppy play. I would actually have assumed that if she gets along in the beginning...then I would be fine. I'll have to make sure to do as you did, and keep my eye on her.

Profile! Nice!

[Carol Burke]

I had two bitches that grew up together and were great friends until they reached maturity. It seems that the closer one gets to coming in season the more aggressive they get with each other. Spaying will help if they haven't gotten to the point of actually fighting, it seems that once they fight that's it, they are enemies for life. Yes, bitches will fight to the death, but so will males. Having spent several thousand dollars patching up males after fights, believe me it is not something to take lightly.

It is very difficult to keep two bitches or dogs, that do not get along and have actually fought. No matter how careful you are there is always the chance of a door, gate, whatever left open and once they lock on to each other it is almost impossible to seperate them. Especially if you are there alone.

I belive that most dogs can be trained to ignore other dogs out in the world when they are under control, but there are dogs that, because of poor breeding, will go into a rage syndrome and are not controllable. These are the dogs that need to be PTS for the safety of all concerned and for the peace the dog needs.

[RottieGirl86]

I feel horrible for the Pom Owner. I have had 3 seperate incidents of dogs running up while we were walking ours ( 2 small, mutt, cairn terrier & rott.) One time, the loose dog kept jumping at my Mother as she held our small dog ( mutt, all of 16 lbs.)

Having lived with Sasha, my late female Rott for 6 years and now a female puppy ( 9 mos), I can easily understand bitch aggression and the dog aggression , plus how it can escalate - too easily. Thankfully, my dog does obey and is very mindful about commands.

However, as this dog, and really any breed can exhibit this behavior, (as my Wire Hair terrier attacked & "won" a fight with a GSD, when I was a child under 10 yrs.) just rotts and other large dogs it does result in death a lot more, it is due to temperment & breeding.

Any blanket statement one hypothesises is flat out silly. Dogs are wonderful and after 15k years of co-living, we understand each other very well. But, they are animals and have a will of their own. Some dogs ARE just flat out mean and some are sneaky, not to humanize them, but to expand on character. They do not "rationalize." Never place them (dogs) in this type of situation.

Until the dog is very mature ( anything under 3 years is NOT mature, IMHO) you cannot ever trust the dog out of your sight and possesion. Any statements beyond that is guess work at worse.

I hope the owners loose their right to own dogs and are fined in some appropriate manner ( community service comes to mind as well.) I would go so far as to make the pay for any counseling the Pom owner needed! i'd have nightmares of it , if I was in her/their shoes.

My idjits of family members let my puppy loose into the front yeard at 5 months, am I a bad owner? No bite history, but could have easily made one then! Geez, they looked at me like I was mad when I yelled at them ( humans, no the dog *wink*.)

The Nature vs. Nuture also only goes so far. Neither are implicite of how precisely a dog will behave, just indicators. So, pure "I socialized" my dog will not answer, as we all tend to think nicely of our pets.

The only and best way to prevent this is diligence.

*always know where your dog is

*prevention - prevention - in case you missed it - prevention

* train your dog - your only fail back, incase MY FAMILY members VISIT you! ( did I say Idjitis!) /mutters: Mom, are you sure my brother wasn't swapped at birth?

*advise "politely" any other dog owner who thinks "Fluffy" is harmless on where and how to get good training (size really doesn't matter, a good hold & bite in right spot = death.)

Failing that, keep animal control on speed dial & bottle of you favorite "bottled" water handy, be it a spray bottle with vinager, bitter apple or mace even! in case of dog fights/attacks.

This reminds me of the "there but for the grace of God..."

Seriously, without diligence and training, anyone could be in their shoes. We train in preparation for the worst & hope it is never required in situations like these. but, always remeber, training is something beyond their Instincts ~ we are training them NOT to be pack leaders, something they really want as descendants of wolves ( however remotely now) and it is that imprint on them that we train out of them. So, acknowledging this fine edge sword is imparative - hence the diligence is required.

I view dogs very differently, in recent years. much of this si due to my studies and seeing my dog grow, while seeing also the same traits my late Rott had as well.

I have posted in the past, one of my first posts - there is a local trainer, he takes all the agressive dogs (fear, dog, people, etc.)and retrains them. He only had to put down 1 dog in 25 years, that in itself speaks volumes to me.

So, topics like this mean a lot to me as well as touch all of us as dog owners.

BTW : Happy Holidays! I lurk more than post :)

RottieGirl

[CarolineS]

Something that seems to have escaped the notice of most of the news media up here is that the dog that killed the Pom is not a Rottweiler. It is a Lab/Rott cross. Not that that excuses the attack in any way, but I really wish the facts would be reported correctly, instead of the dog being portrayed as another "killer Rottweiler" just to whip up hysteria. If the media even mentions that the dog is a Lab cross, it's usually as an aside at the end of the report after they've already referred to the dog as a Rottweiler about 20 times.

The dog's owner is away and the dog is being looked after by a friend. It escaped from the yard along with the friend's purebred Rottweiler which did not take part in the attack. The neighbours are getting up a petition to remove the Rottweiler from the neighbourhood because they are "vicious killers". No one seems to care that the Rottweiler did nothing.

Most people out there know squat about dog behavior. They shouldn't own pet rocks, yet they are allowed to own large, powerful dogs. Attacks such as the one on the Pom rarely happen "out of the blue". The signs are always there, but the owners are too ignorant to see them. It's about time that the laws changed to put the blame where it really belongs, on the dog's owner.

[TrishB]

Originally posted by CarolineS
Something that seems to have escaped the notice of most of the news media up here is that the dog that killed the Pom is not a Rottweiler. It is a Lab/Rott cross. Not that that excuses the attack in any way, but I really wish the facts would be reported correctly, instead of the dog being portrayed as another "killer Rottweiler" just to whip up hysteria. If the media even mentions that the dog is a Lab cross, it's usually as an aside at the end of the report after they've already referred to the dog as a Rottweiler about 20 times.

The dog's owner is away and the dog is being looked after by a friend. It escaped from the yard along with the friend's purebred Rottweiler which did not take part in the attack. The neighbours are getting up a petition to remove the Rottweiler from the neighbourhood because they are "vicious killers". No one seems to care that the Rottweiler did nothing.

Most people out there know squat about dog behavior. They shouldn't own pet rocks, yet they are allowed to own large, powerful dogs. Attacks such as the one on the Pom rarely happen "out of the blue". The signs are always there, but the owners are too ignorant to see them. It's about time that the laws changed to put the blame where it really belongs, on the dog's owner.

Great post CarolineS! I hadn't heard that the dog was a cross. I've only heard 'Rottweiler', and hadn't heard of any of the other details you mentioned. And I live in Toronto! You'd think they'd be interested in reporting the facts. *sigh* :(

And Sansano - you're taking things a little more to heart than I really think you should. What I said was that yes, some, very few, Rotties have quirks that you just can't get past. But you have to be careful of when you say 'it's just the way the breed is'. Sadly, the irresponisible owners have picked up that same line and use it as an excuse not to train / handle / control their dogs. I didn't say that you were one of those people. ;)

I'm going to look up this story and see if I can post it here. I'm also going to send it to the radio station here that keeps saying Rottweiler and not Lab X Rottie and forgetting to mention the other dog.

[Sansano]

Originally posted by TrishB

What I said was that yes, some, very few, Rotties have quirks that you just can't get past. But you have to be careful of when you say 'it's just the way the breed is'.

I guess I have one of the very few quirky Rottweilers with dog aggression. Carol seems to have one too. Annette(WD) had one too. And...it goes on. Must be coincidence. I am sure if we had poodles it would happen too. I'd rather admit and deal with our breed characteristics(for some dogs) than pretend they don't exist.

[CarolineS]

Trish,

I haven't read about it in the paper or heard it on the radio, so I don't know what they're saying. I saw it on TV yesterday, on the 6 and 11 PM news on CFTO. They said all the way through the report that the dog was a Rottweiler, then at the end, added as an afterthought..."well, actually, the dog that killed the Pom was a Lab/Rott cross and not a Rottweiler". The friend minding the cross owns a Rott and the reporter said the Rott was not involved in the attack.

Mike,

I agree that there are dogs that no amount of training and socialization will prevent their dog aggression. I've seen some dogs like that, Rottweiler and otherwise. Obedience training certainly helps hold it in check when the owner is around, but I doubt the basic temperament can be changed. I don't see this as a reflection of a good or bad owner. What is a reflection is how the owner then deals with this problem. If you are a responsible owner (which it certainly seems you are), you make absolutely sure that your dog is never in a situation where it could harm another dog. I would imagine owning a dog-aggressive dog takes the meaning of "responsible owner" to new heights!!

[ptremaine]

Should the dog be ordered put to sleep? Should the owner make the choice to put the dog to sleep whether ordered to or not? Should it matter that the dog 'only' killed another dog and not a small child?

If it were your dog, what would you do?

I wouldn't automatically assume my dog were human aggressive if it attacked and killed another very small dog, number one. Dogs know that children aren't dogs - they do sometimes view kids as different kind of prey however, with very bad consequences. A bigger dog does however know that a small dog, especially a yippy yappy one, is being aggressive or is defenseless, and hence, can attack and kill.

My dog, who generally loves other dogs, can be tad dicey around other very small and yappy, aggressive breeds. It's something I'm aware of and keep in mind when she's off lead in public, and when she's on lead with me on the street. This happened because she's been attacked by small dogs, without provocation, while she was on lead. Some little dogs are far too yippy and yappy and aggressive for their own good. Most of the owners were completely oblivious and thought it was fine that their little brat dogs bit my dog, albeit in a non-life threatening manner. :D I now carry a heavy flashlight with me, so I can crack a head if I need to do so. :D

My dog not being keen on the toy and some small breeds is explained by her recent negative experiences, but do we know anything about the Lab/Rott mix in the original post? After what happened to my girl, should I have advocated that the aggressive Pomeranian, aggressive Lhasa, aggressive 45 lb. Afghan hound and aggressive Pit bull mix near me be put down for aggressing and biting my dog who was wagging her tail at the time, while she was on a lead? If the tables are turned, why not blame the owner and the small dog too?? [rhetorical question]

I've frequntly seen how many Pomeranians act - I've never seen one that wasn't yapping constantly and acting aggressively towards dogs and humans. Including at dog shows. I don't particularly like Pomeranians for that reason [many owners really fail to socialize and train this breed]. In fact, quite frankly, I'm sure that if the Pomeranian breed were a 100 lb. dog, they'd be subject to a breed ban somewhere due to aggression. Since these are little 3-8 pound dogs however, their overly aggressive natures are overlooked or pooh-poohed. That's a mistake in my view.

Yes aggression towards other dogs is very bad, but it should be considered in context, and not be acceptable due to the small size of the dog. In fact, of all the dogs I've seen interact in public in recent months, the smallest ones were the worst in terms of socialization, aggression and owner indifference. [I've witnessed a very large pit bull almost tear a big 100 lb. Lab to pieces, without provocation, so don't tell me about witnessing something horrific. The pit also attacked the Lab's owner and bit his finger nearly off.]

When are we going to start blaming the small dogs for the enormous numbers of dog bites they inflict on PEOPLE each year? [CDC has the stats, go look and see if I'm not right]. I'm tired of overreacting to big dog aggression when most of the dog bites are perpetrated by the smaller breeds. Dog on dog aggression is bad, but I view human aggression in dogs far more seriously.

Dog on dog aggression isn't an indicator of dog on human aggression anyway. That's what I've read repeatedly in many books and in articles online.

FTR, I've also witnessed several Mini Poodles and Daschunds act far too aggressively without provocation in public, and then become chase bait for far bigger dogs at the dog park. I think it's bad attitude with some of the little breeds - owners get off on their dogs acting all tough, until a bigger dog comes along and makes a snack out of Fido. Then the big dog is blamed as a vicious killer. Talk about unfair. By contrast, I've seen many very small Jack Russell's play like big dogs, and be treated fairly by much bigger dogs.

I do not agree that the Lab/Rottie mix noted in the original post would next wish to make a child part of his menu. That's stretching it too much, and jumping to conclusions. Unless the dog displays aggression towards kids, it's not something I'd automatically conclude because it killed another dog.

So without more facts, I wouldn't put the Lab/Rottie mix to sleep immediately. That's just not fair to the Lab Mix. It's the owner's responsibility to keep the dog secure, as dogs tend to do what dogs do - they act according to instinct if left unattended often, and in accord with pack dynamics. The Lab/Rottie mix owner should buy the woman a new dog however and the Lab/Rottie mix should be rehomed to a more responsible home setting, though it sounds like the dog was not intentionally let loose.

Prey Drive is one thing - ripping something living to pieces is quite another.

Actually, you're not correct there. A dog with high prey drive, as many Rotties have, is a dog who can rip something considered prey apart. Period. The dog is acting on a very primitive animal instinct, not some politically correct socialized demand we humans place on it. It's naive to think that your dog might not one day have high prey drive and chase and kill something, even ripping it apart. You simply can't know that at your dog's age. Even in a situation where a dog is trained, it's possible that the dog could decide to attack and kill a small furry thing.

A dog that has no bite inhibition, no 'off' switch and no acknowledgement to the screaming owner - is a dangerous animal. There's a big difference between talking the talk, and walking the walk.

BTW, prey drive doesn't normally translate into human aggression. :) A dog lacking human bite inhibition is a whole other ball of wax than one who'll attack and kill a small dog or wild animal. Please note that's an important distinction. Bite inhibition is something that is typically used in the context of dog on human aggression, not other animals.

Look, if someone would be so quick to put their dog to sleep if he somehow showed signs of dog agression then maybe an alternative breed would be in order.

Amen. The Rottie is a tough breed if bred correctly, not some soft cuddly Retriever with a black and mahogany suit. I really don't understand the demand that a Rottweiler be a soft dog who will tolerate anything without reacting. That's very unrealistic. If one wants that sort of soft dog, fine, go to another breed and find it. But it's a mistake to think that a dog who can kill and tear another dog to pieces is fundamentally flawed [thought that can be the case] or doing something that dogs won't do. Dogs are DOGS, originally wolves. They have big sharp teeth at this size dog and it's a big huge mistake to underestimate that fact. When I had my Giant, people would frequently ask to pet him, and ask, "Does he bite?" and I'd reply, "He's a dog isn't he? That's what those teeth are for, biting. But no, he won't bite a person without a command."

Trish, I'm sorta curious here too - why do you have a Rottweiler and not accept the possibility that your dog could become dog aggressive and prey drive driven? You're claiming you'd put him down if he exhibited natural drives? If a Rottie isn't at least a little tougher than the average Golden Retriever, I'm not sure that's a well bred Rottweiler. My Giant Schnauzer was not only high prey driven, he was a very hard dog who was very aloof towards humans. He had no problem with ScH III level work, could be given a single command and turn it off. He had bite inhibition for humans - yet he still bit two of them when I was threatened with physical harm. See the difference?

BTW, I've seen no Rotties locally who'd attack and kill another dog, however, I've seen plenty of dog aggressive and human aggressive Pit Bulls and mixed dogs. I live near Baltimore city - a city filled with drug dealing losers who also own lots and lots of pit bulls. These dogs are often left to roam the streets at will, and this summer, there were several very vicious unprovoked attacks on children, by pit bull dogs. The owners were invariably a certain type of person not known for living by the lawful rules of society, but the fact remains, the dogs were aggressive and should be put down, for the dog and human aggression.

HOWEVER...the differences between a pit bull and Rottie are enormous: pit bulls were bred for killing and fighting other dogs. Rottweilers were bred for herding and guarding the herd, later for guarding possessions. Rotties weren't bred to be fighters, pits were. Rotties were bred to be tough but not overly aggressive, and the prey drive was necessary in order for them to be good at guarding herds [ask anyone with a Border collie if the dogs don't use prey drive to herd].

When we read about Rotties killing people [and sadly, they rank only 2nd to the Pit Bull for human fatalities!] we're reading about an anomoly each time. Dogs who kill people are still rare, thank god. The American Veterinary Medicine Association issued a report carried on the CDC website that pointed out that other breeds are actually more dangerous than the Rottie, as the numbers of other breed dogs in relation to deaths is higher percentage wise than Rottweilers. That's an important statistical distinction. As for Dog on Dog aggression, those numbers aren't kept. But from my own anecdotal files, I can attest to the fact that many toy and miniature breeds, Chow dogs, pit bulls and a few others are far more aggressive towards dogs and people than Rottweilers.

He will not be allowed off leash unless it's a controlled situation.

Unless you intend to keep him only off leash in your own yard, then there probably aren't any "controlled" places for you to take him. Not even fenced dog parks. The only thing you can do is train the dog the best you can and to the best of his abilities. Some dogs are perfect off leash, even large otherwise aggressively leaning dogs. My mom had a large male Dobe for years. He was great off leash, due to training and socialization. He went to dog parks, ScH clubs, visits to friends homes, vacations, you name it. He didn't like small dogs so she avoided giving him contact. He was still an explemplary pet and companion.


PT

[TrishB]

Wow - you've been busy ptremaine.

I'll attempt to answer your questions, in my opinion of course.

a) I don't assume that dog : dog aggression equals human aggression. I haven't said that, so I have no idea of where you get that impression from.

b) At no point was it ever said that the Pomeranian was yapping or being aggressive. From what I've heard about the situation, the dog was being walked on leash and the other dog came out of no where and attacked. Hardly 'provolked' as you ellude to. Maybe it was - but to assume that some of this is the Pomeranians fault for being walked at that time is just silly. The other dogs owner is at fault, 100% here.

c) As a responsible Rottie owner, I am fully aware of the extent of damage my dog could cause. A Pomeranian / dachshund / whatever-little bite is bad! But it is hardly the threat to life and limb that a 100 lbs + dog is. Perspective here is key. Yes, little dogs should be better behaved - agreed. And I agree that I'm happy they're small. But it's like comparing a sling shot to a shot gun.

d) If you want to see what the numbers here, I started a post months ago.

http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/sho...highlight=bite

It addresses what types of dogs have bitten people and the extent of some of the injuries. A simple survey with interesting results - small and large breeds alike.

e) As was posted originally, the dog had a bite history (no, I don't know the details). Nor (again) did I say that it was going to move on to biting children. Of course the owner was negligent. It's obvious that they are not qualified to own this dog. Sadly, in our society, our dogs suffer for our failings. At the same time, this dog has no right to harrass and terrorise a community. He's crossed a line - as far as I'm concerned, the responsible choice is clear.

f) Again - I feel that the dog has crossed a line from a simple chase to attack. Since he has a bite history, it's obvious that this behaviour is escalating. I stand on my earlier comments.

g) If you read my earlier comments, you would know what I said, rather than what you're assuming here. Showing aggression, displaying aggression, not being able to trust the dog, and having it rip another dog apart IN FRONT OF A PERSON WHICH IT DIDN'T ACKNOWLEDGE - are all very different things. All of which would require a different reaction and solution. I resent that comment as it is NOT what I said. Putting a dog to sleep is a horrible decision to make - but I would do so responsibly and with a heavy heart. You have some re-reading to do.

h) I'm aware of the history of the Rottweiler, but thank you for the review.

i) "The only thing you can do is train the dog the best you can and to the best of his abilities." Which is what I'm doing. And I'd challenge you to find a place where I said any differently.

Lastly, again - I love this breed and I love my puppy. I am raising him in a manner in which I feel will allow him to be the best representative of the breed that he can be. I am also raising him in a manner in which I feel is responsible, loving and caring. My breeder, multiple breed contacts, trainer, dog walker and veterinarian all seem to agree that I'm doing a great job. And I'll continue to do so.

[ptremaine]

Trish, I need to clear something up - my post wasn't entirely addressed to you. I quoted a couple of different posters, mainly to highlight points that I felt were erroneous [that a dog biting a dog means a dog will bite a person] conclusions or which I felt like commenting upon in general. I guess I should have labeled each quote. :( Sorry for any misunderstanding.

That basically means that some of things you thought I was attributing to you, weren't really. I have no desire to put words into anyone's "mouth" here so to speak. :) I know better. And my reading comprehension is just fine, thanks. :P

Trish wrote: b) At no point was it ever said that the Pomeranian was yapping or being aggressive. From what I've heard about the situation, the dog was being walked on leash and the other dog came out of no where and attacked. Hardly 'provolked' as you ellude to. Maybe it was - but to assume that some of this is the Pomeranians fault for being walked at that time is just silly. The other dogs owner is at fault, 100% here.

Yes, that's true, no one here has reported that this incident involved an aggressive Pomeranian. But no one also noted it wasn't. I commented on the general anecdotal experiences I've had personally. Certainly not to indict the dead little dog per se.

As for the Lab/Rott mix owner being at fault, it's come out since the original post that the dog was being watched by a friend, and the dog escaped the yard, along with a purebred Rottie. Is that correct? If so, it wasn't as if the dog were being deliberately allowed to wander. And what was the 'bite history'? Another dog or a person?

As for blame - I don't blame the Pomeranian owner, though I do think that we can't blame the LabRott mix owner either. The report of the owner being away, the dog in another's care...that counts for something in the allocation of blame.

Trish wrote; Nor (again) did I say that it was going to move on to biting children.

True again and I was quoting and answering another poster. Sorry for any confusion! :(

Trish wrote: Of course the owner was negligent. It's obvious that they are not qualified to own this dog. Sadly, in our society, our dogs suffer for our failings. At the same time, this dog has no right to harrass and terrorise a community. He's crossed a line - as far as I'm concerned, the responsible choice is clear.

I don't think it's been well established that the owner was negligent, or at least it's not been made clear in this thread. So far, we've been informed the owner was away and the dog in the care of a third party. The owner can't be responsible for the conduct of the third party, there wouldn't be a reasonable way for the owner to control the 3rd party or the dog. However, it might have been a better choice to have this dog boarded in a secure facility.

As for the harassment issue, again, is this a first time event with the dog or did this dog do this previously? No dog has the right to run free and terrorize anyone or any other dog. I don't think such dogs need automatic euthanizing though; some dogs can be rehabbed in responsible homes and hands. Others, sadly, must go.

Trish wrote: Showing aggression, displaying aggression, not being able to trust the dog, and having it rip another dog apart IN FRONT OF A PERSON WHICH IT DIDN'T ACKNOWLEDGE - are all very different things.

Are they? Maybe, but it seems to me that you're perceiving it from a human angle and imbueing the incident with human values. The dog in question had a very different reaction process to seeing a small dog, it might have viewed as prey or saw as a convenient target for random aggression. We can't say. We can conclude basics: It saw, it ran and it ripped. We can only speculate, but we can safely say that the dog in question did not go through elaborate thought processes prior to attacking and ripping to shreds. I've seen a dog do that and I can assure you, they act on instinct alone. From visual contact to attack, it's about instinct and temperament.

My breeder, multiple breed contacts, trainer, dog walker and veterinarian all seem to agree that I'm doing a great job. And I'll continue to do so.

Never said you weren't doing so. I did ask why you chose a Rottweiler when it seems from my perspective that you're of a mind you can control all aggression in the dog, everywhere, all the time. Also, I got the impression from your comments herein that the Rottie in your world shouldn't have any negative traits, which in my mind, is not realistic. Again, my opinion, not claiming you wrote that.

Just as a passing query - do you think that protection dogs are acceptable, and that Schutzhund is a valid form of dog sport for Rotties? Should all Rotties who show aggression be put down, regardless of the context?

Not asking to be a pain in the arse, just asking to clarify where you're coming from....

PT

[spidey]

do you think that protection dogs are acceptable, and that Schutzhund is a valid form of dog sport for Rotties? Should all Rotties who show aggression be put down, regardless of the context?

Not that this was addressed to me, but I'd just like to point out that some of the least aggressive and friendliest dogs I've ever met were police-trained dogs (not sniffer dogs, either). These dogs must be stable and confident enough to not need to show aggression unless it's required, and it shows, they're not mean dogs. There's a huge difference between a loose cannon dog who's randomly and uncontrollably aggressive (i.e. vicious) and a well-trained, stable dog whose drives have been carefully honed and controlled, who is confident enough to judge when aggression is needed (and more importantly, when it's not), and who obeys commands because it knows what is expected of it. I have no problem with protection training or Schutzhund, when it's done with sane and stable dogs under the supervision of someone who knows what they're doing, and when it's started with the intent to finish the training.

Of course context is important, every dog should be given the benefit of the doubt, but a dog who rips another dog to pieces, ignoring the submissive signals which were surely given (assuming the Pom even had a chance), is not a stable dog. And I think it is the owner's fault, ultimately, they had a responsibility to ensure that whoever was looking after the dog understood that it had a bite history and would take appropriate steps to manage it. It doesn't matter that the owner was away, IMO.

The vast majority of the Poms I've met have been nice. Keep in mind that many owners of small dogs don't treat them like dogs at all, I think it's less that they tend toward being nasty, and more that they've never been trained to be any different - if they weighed 100lbs., odds are they'd rate more or less the same, temperament-wise, as any other comparable breed, because they wouldn't be treated like cats or children or toys, they'd be treated like dogs.

[moondog]

Originally posted by ptremaine
.......it wasn't as if the dog were being deliberately allowed to wander.

I don't think it matters one bit if the dog was deliberately or accidentally allowed to wander. It got out, it attacked and it killed.

As for blame - I don't blame the Pomeranian owner, though I do think that we can't blame the LabRott mix owner either. The report of the owner being away, the dog in another's care...that counts for something in the allocation of blame.

Of course the Pomeranian's owner can't be blamed! The dog was leashed and under the control of its owner! Being in the care of someone else does not let the Lab/Rott owner off the hook one bit. They shoulder the responsibility for their dog and that includes choosing someone to stand in for them that is ready and able to understand what the responsibility is and assume it.

So far, we've been informed the owner was away and the dog in the care of a third party. The owner can't be responsible for the conduct of the third party, there wouldn't be a reasonable way for the owner to control the 3rd party or the dog.

Owner by proxy. The proxy was the owner's choice. And they chose someone who was either unaware of the danger of the dog or too stupid to make sure the gate was locked, or both.

However, it might have been a better choice to have this dog boarded in a secure facility.

That's an understatement. Good decisions are part of responsible ownership.

As for the harassment issue, again, is this a first time event with the dog or did this dog do this previously?

If the dog was mandated to be muzzled in public (as stated earlier), it's probably fair to assume that there have been prior events.

It saw, it ran and it ripped.

........and it did so in the complete absence of leadership. There's absolutely no comparison with sport or protection trained dogs who have leadership and only act under the direction of their handler.

[Homerhomer]

since it was reported incorectly that the dog was a rottweiler, perhaps it was also incorrect that the dog was ripped apart, perhaps the lab/rott cought the pom and shook him, just like my dog shakes the puppets, and broke his neck.
Perhaps the muzzle order was issued after the incident and there were no prior bite incidents?
Should the dog still be put down then?

[CarolineS]

Originally posted by ptremaine
I don't think it's been well established that the owner was negligent, or at least it's not been made clear in this thread. So far, we've been informed the owner was away and the dog in the care of a third party. The owner can't be responsible for the conduct of the third party, there wouldn't be a reasonable way for the owner to control the 3rd party or the dog.

The Dog Owner's Liability Act of Ontario states "The owner of a dog is liable for damages resulting from a bite or attack by the dog on another person or domestic animal". It goes on to state "An owner who is liable to pay damages under this section is entitled to recover contribution and indemnity from any other person in proportion to the degree to which the other person's fault or negligence caused or contributed to the damages."

As you can see, the primary responsibility lies with the owner. He may well be able to go after whoever he entrusted the dog to, to try and recover damages, but the owner is at the head of the line.

I'm about to test this out for myself. My dog was attacked this Spring by two dogs being walked by a petsitter. Neither the dogs' owners nor the petsitting company will reimburse me my vet bills, to the tune of $500. I'm taking them to court.

The law should be on my side, but the sad part about all this is that there are so many irresponsible Rottweiler owners and so much bad publicity that I'm scared stiff I'll lose just because my dog is a Rottweiler. :(