If you are a behavior specialist, please help!

[Aikido]

Can a once loving dog be rehabilitated? Here is the story.

JANUARY 4, 2001


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REF: DOG ATTACK ON DECEMBER 7, 2000
LISA CAPPONI

DEAR PHIL,

HI, I HOPE ALL IS WELL WITH YOU AND YOUR FAMILY.

IT HAS TAKEN UNTIL NOW THAT I AM ABLE TO WRITE THIS SUMMARY TO YOU OF WHAT WE BELIEVE CAUSED THE ATTACK ON 12/7/00.

FIRST OF ALL, I HAVE ALWAYS LOVED DOBERMAN PINCHSERS EVEN SINCE I CAN REMEMBER. I HAD GOTTEN MY 1ST DOBERMAN WHILE IN HIGHSCHOOL, FROM KIMBERTAL KENNEL. NINO WAS MY 3RD DOBERMAN FROM KIMBERTAL KENNEL.

NINO WAS AN AWESOME PUPPY WHO WAS FULL OF LIFE AND LOTS OF LOVE. HE WAS A GREAT PUP AND A BIG PART OF OUR FAMILY IN EVERY SENSE OF THE WAY.

WE PURCHASED NINO ON 9/26/99 AND ON 12/02/99 WE PURCHASED A FEMALE DOBERMAN, GIA ON A BREEDERS CONTRACT( CONTRACT ENCLOSED). BOTH DOGS WERE PURCHASED STRICTLY AS FAMILY PETS.

WE INITIALY STARTED IN HOME DOG TRAINING WITH A CERTIFIED PROFESSIONAL DOG TRAINER, STEVE GALOWITZ (RESUME ENCLOSED); HOWEVER, MY HUSBAND DAVID WAS NOT ABLE TO ATTEND THESE TRAINING SESSIONS DUE TO HIS JOB (DAVID IS A CONSTRUCTION WORKER WHO WORKS MOST SATURDAYS AND SOMETIMES ON SUNDAY) AND ALL FAMILY MEMBERS NEEDED TO ATTEND AND BE A PART OF OUR DOGS TRAINING.

SINCE DAVID’S WORK SCHEDULE WAS SO HECTIC, WE DECIDED TO ENROLL OUR DOGS IN KIMBERTAL’S 2 WEEK BASIC TRAINING PROGRAM (WALKING ON A LEASH; NINO ON LEFT, GIA ON RIGHT) . SINCE I ALWAYS HAD GREAT PUPS FROM KIMBERTAL, I TRUSTED THEM WITH OUR DOGS FOR ON LEASH TRAINING. . WE ENROLLED OUR DOGS IN THE BEGINNING OF JULY AND PICKED THEM UP ON 7/19/00.

WHEN WE PICKED OUR DOGS UP, A TRAINER BY THE NAME OF FRANK, WENT OVER THE WHOLE TRAINING PROCESS WITH US IN A PRIVATE ROOM AT THE KENNEL. FRANK BROUGHT THE DOGS TO THIS ROOM ONE AT A TIME. BOTH OF OUR DOGS WERE SO HAPPY TO SEE US, BUT WHEN NINO CAME INTO THE ROOM HE WAS SHAKING AND STARTED TO URINATE ON THE FLOOR(WE JUST THOUGHT HE WAS OVER EXCITED TO SEE US).
AS WE WERE GOING OVER THE TRAING PROCEDURES, A YOUNG MAN BY THE NAME OF WARREN WALKED INTO THE ROOM AND NINO STARTED GROWLING AT HIM RIGHT AWAY. I ASKED FRANK WHY MY DOG WAS GROWLING AT THIS MAN AND HE SAID FOR SOME REASON NINO “HATED” WARREN, I TOLD HIM THAT NINO HAD NEVER EVER GROWLED AT ANYONE AND ASKED HIM IF SOMETHING COULD HAVE HAPPENED TO MAKE OUR DOG ACT THIS WAY. FRANK JUST SAID THAT HE WAS THE ONLY TRAINER THAT WORKED OUR DOGS AND THAT HE DIDN’T UNDERSTAND WHY NINO “HATED” WARREN.

ONCE WE GOT HOME, NINO SEEMED LIKE A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT DOG, HE WAS VERY NERVOUS, SHY AND EVEN SEEMED AS IF HE DIDN’T TRUST US. I CALLED THE KENNEL SEVERAL TIMES AND EVEN ASKED IF SOMETHING COULD HAVE HAPPENED WITH WARREN OR IF NINO WAS STRUCK BY ANYONE THERE OR AN OBJECT FOR ANY REASON; HE JUST WAS NOT THE SAME. KIMBERTAL SAID TO BRING HIM BACK AND THAT I COULD HAVE A CREDIT FOR A NEW DOG. DAVID, THE BOYS AND MYSELF WERE SO ATTACHED TO NINO WE JUST WANTED TO HELP HIM AND TURN HIM BACK TO THAT SWEET LOVING PUP THAT WE KNEW PRIOR TO NINO GOING AWAY TO TRAINING. AS TIME WENT ON, NINO GOT WORSE AND LESS TRUSTING.

FIRST WE TOOK NINO TO OUR VET TO MAKE SURE THAT HE WAS NOT IN PAIN OR SUFFERING IN ANYWAY. NINO GOT A CLEAN BILL OF HEALTH, HOWEVER OUR VET NOTICED A CHANGE IN NINO.

SECOND, WE CALLED OUR ORIGINAL TRAINER, STEVE GALOWITZ AND SCHEDULED FOR HIM TO COME TO OUR HOME ON 12/9/00 TO GIVE US A PROFESSIONAL OPINION OF WHAT HAPPENED TO NINO DURING HIS STAY AT KIMBERTAL KENNEL, WELL STEVE NEVER GOT THAT CHANCE, THE ATTACK HAPPENED ON 12/7/00(MY HUSBAND’S B-DAY).

ON 12/7/00, GIA AND NINO WERE OUT IN OUR BACK YARD AND THEY TOOK OUR BEDROOM COMFORTER OFF THE LINE, SO I WENT OUTSIDE TO GET THE COMFORTER. I BROUGHT THE COMFORTER INSIDE AND DOWN TO THE WASH ROOM. NINO CAME IN FIRST AND WHEN I POINTED(WITH MY RIGHT FINGER) TO THE COMFORTER, HE STARTED RIGHT AWAY TO ATTACK ME, MOST OF THE ATTACK WAS ON MY RIGHT FOREARM, BUT I ALSO SUFFERED BITES ON MY LEFT ARM, LEFT FOREHEAD, STOMACH, LEFT BREASAT AND MY LEFT EAR LOPE. DURING THE ATTACK I WAS HOMEALONE WITH MY TWO CHILDERN, CHRISTIAN, AGE 4 AND ANTHONY, AGE 2. NEEDLESS TO SAY, THIS HAS BEEN A MOST HORRIFING EXPERIENCE THAT I WILL NEVER GET OVER.

I WAS IN HOLY REDEEMER HOSPITAL FOR 6 DAYS, I HAD TO HAVE SURGERY ON MY RIGHT ARM AND I AM STILL UNDER DOCTORS CARE.

WE HAVE SEVERAL PEOPLE WE ARE WILLING TO COME FORWARD AND STATE THAT NINO WAS A WONDERFUL DOG WITH NO SIGNS OF AGGRESSION (FAMILY MEMBERS, NEIGHBORS, OUR VET & VET ASSISTANT VET, FORMER TRAINER, STEVE GALOWITZ). ALSO, MY DOCTOR CAN SUPPORT ALL RECORDS STATING HOW SERIOUS THIS ATTACK WAS. IN ADDITION, I HAVE SPOKEN WITH A WOMAN WHO IS VERY, VERY FAMILIAR WITH KIMBERTAL AND THEIR PRACTICE. THIS WOMAN, SHARON ALSO KNOWS OF SEVERAL SIMILAR CASES AGINST KIMBERTAL. I WILL BE ABLE TO GET HER PHONE NUMBER IF YOU THINK WE HAVE A CASE.

PLEASE FIND ALL PAPERWORK THAT I HAVE RECEIVED FROM THE KENNEL.

THIS IS THE MOST TERRIBLE AND UPSETTING THING THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED TO ME AND MY FAMILY, I DON’T KNOW IF I’LL EVER GET OVER THIS. WORDS CANNOT EXPRESS HOW I FEEL.

PHIL, PLEASE REVIEW AND ADVISE IF YOU THINK THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I SHOULD PURSUE.

I THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME AND APPRECIATE YOU REVIEWING THIS.

TAKE CARE,

LISA CAPPONI
747 HALLOWELL DRIVE
HUNTINGDON VALLEY, PA 19006
Hardrocmom@aol.com

[JonandMichelle]

Well, Im no specialist, BUT I do know that your friend and her dog have a LONG road ahead of them in the recovery dept I find none of her statments unusual do to one name...KIMBERTAL!!! They are know for their crappy breeding, crappy over all health of their dogs, and their crappy (wanton) training.

I know she loves her dog, but having TWO small children in the household, I would NOT have the dog around. I love my Rott, but I love my children more! I would find a VERY good behaviorist and get the dog evaluated ASAP. I think the best people to answer your friends questions are German, Mick, Orville, WorkinDogz, Vicki and a few others. BUT, one would have to SEE the dog before passing a solid judgement. I hope you receive more help, as this is a tragic accurance

[MARYDVM]

I once watched a "protection Trained" Kimbertal Dobe owned by a client in an evaluation session at the local club. At first sight of the sleeve, the dog launched a hysterical and frenzied attack on the decoy. The dog was immediately put away, and it was explained to the owner that this dog had no place in sport work. He eventually had to be taken out of a home situation due to his erratic and dangerous behavior and ended his days "guarding" a junkyard. The dog was destroyed by its training.

[FredAl]

I have worked on a similar case for a rott's rehab and rescue, and I will reply to this post addressing the original letter-writer.

It sounds like the training method used on Nino was compulsion-based and his low threshhold of tolerance for punishment triggered his defense drive into fear and aggression. I am pretty sure that it was Warren who performed this brutal training method on Nino because of Nino's unusual reaction to him. Since Frank told you that he was the only trainer that "worked your dogs," my presumption is that Frank might have started Nino's training, initiated the compulsion training, and when he noticed that Nino was reacting to him in a fearful, submissive manner, he passed on Nino's training to Warren. Nino's view of Frank's leadership and respected pack status was destroyed because of his unfair, cruel and untrusworthy behavior toward him. This may have caused Nino's mistrust for his pack leaders (one of them being you).

Warren may have continued with the compulsive training in an inexperienced, uncertain manner. Nino sensed this and may have intimidated Warren with his fear aggression. Warren may have utilized other, more cruel compulsion methods to squash him into submission. This may have traumatized Nino and broke his spirit and temperament.

Enough of the presumptions.

Most dogs with proper breeding and character can quickly recover from these experiences. Nino's shy, submissive, fearful initial reaction, and a consequent vicious behavior displays improper breeding and character.

Whatever event that caused Nino's unusual behavior happened while he was in Kimbertal's care. It will take a long process of rehabilitation and re-training to bring back Nino's normally pleasant demeanor. With two young kids, your home is not the proper place for this. Only an experienced, knowledgeable dog trainer/behaviorist can succeed in this.

There are two main reasons that caused Nino's vicious attack on you: 1) improper breeding 2) improper training

Both were done by Kimbertal -- historically known for improper breeding and training practices.

I'm sorry for what happened to you and Nino. I hope everything works out right.

[Aikido]

What are the chances for success?

[FredAl]

It depends on how how deep-rooted the experience was for Nino, how good the trainer/behavior is, Nino's inherent character (being Kimbertal bred doesn't make it too promising), and the owner's abilities to apply the trainer's advice. It will take some time.

[Mick Trainer]

This is a very sad situation all round.

This is a very hard situation to give a verdict on as there are so many facts missing and we are relying on the handler/owners account of things. I will not make any brash statements about what happened due to this and the fact that I have little knowledge of the dog nor the kennel other than what I have read on this site (which has not been flattering).

In saying this if what has been written is true (the character of the dog before the training etc (I am not saying that it is untrue, just that we do not know the true level of understanding of canine behavior etc that the handler has and her ability to see the early signs of a problem)) I am in line to agree with FredAl here and say that it sounds like the attack was a defensive reaction to the percieved threat of the authority figure's discipline. I also agree that it is feasible to think that this reaction could be due to the training techniques employed at the kennel. That these methods has taught the dog that it cannot trust the handler and that discipline is harsh and something that creates real fear/threat within the dog.

Once again however I must say that there are to many fact that go un-mentioned here to really make a real judgement. Meeting the dog and owner for some time could alter that.

As to the chances for recovery it is a bit like "how long is a piece of string". With a good trainer and a handler that is willing to work with, and has the time to work with, the dog I would say quite high. However, the person writting here must truly ask themsleves, if they can see that the dog's behavior is rectified, can she trust the dog 100% again? Not many people can. The dog may be able to go somewhere else (finding someone who has that time/knowledge etc that is willing to take a dog like this on is very difficult) but if she cannot really trust the dog again then she must remove the dog. It must also be remembered that the price of being wrong in this case could be very high.

Mick.

[German Vanegas]

I agree with FredAl and Mick.

I also like to add that "Kimbertal" protection dog trainers work dogs in a wrongly instigated defense drive method ("do or die"), and that those trainers do not develop their dogs in prey drive, which affects the correct bite, comfort, self-confidence and motivation. Consequently, those so-called protection dog trainers are known for ruining many otherwise good dogs, by cornering them into avoidance to make them react with a ferocious fear-biting defensive instinct. Or even worse, by making dogs to become overly aggressive, bordering with vicious, due to too much defense drive provocation and lack of prey drive work.

[TrinityRun]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by German Vanegas:
I agree with FredAl and Mick.

I also like to add that "Kimbertal" protection dog trainers work dogs in a wrongly instigated defense drive method
("do or die"), and that those trainers do not develop their dogs in prey drive, which affects the correct bite,
comfort, self-confidence and motivation. Consequently, those so-called protection dog trainers are known for
ruining many otherwise good dogs, by cornering them into avoidance to make them react with a ferocious
fear-biting defensive instinct. Or even worse, by making dogs to become overly aggressive, bordering with vicious,
due to too much defense drive provocation and lack of prey drive work.</font>

And when you couple this with the genetics in those lines you have a MAJOR time bomb on your hands.

I mean absolutely no disrespect to the owners, but I do not feel they have the knowledge or the stamina to handle this kind of a dog...even under professional guidance. (The trainer can't live with them 24/7).

As was pointed out previously, it's next to impossible to advise anyone properly in this kind of forum. However, based upon the urination, the trembling, his reaction to your authority (pointing a finger), these all spell out nerve bag to me. Nervy dogs can often become DANGEROUS dogs - especially in the hands of a layperson. These folks need to think with their heads right now, not their hearts. They need to deal with what this dog is right now - today, regardless of what he used to be like. You simply cannot retrain what is genetically there (or not there).

The odds are overwhelming stacked against rehabilitation,in my opinion. The liability is another factor which shouldn't be overlooked. Not just in keeping him and running the risk of this happening to the family again but in the legal ramifications of placing a dog of this nature with another person, professional or not. (We run into it often in rescue and it does exist.)

It is an inescapable fact that we live in a sue me happy society and if you sell, place or otherwise give this dog away, there *is* a chance you can sued if he attacks again.

On that note, I would like to point out that when someone requires corrective surgery and 6 days hospitalization, they were mauled - not bitten. That speaks volumes to me about
this dog mental state of mind and I feel strongly his explosive reaction goes beyond simply testing authority and/or receiving bad training. This wing nut has a genetic screw loose somewhere!

I’m sorry, folks but I would be making a trip to the vet with this dog today!

[Paxx]

I am moving this to General Info.

------------------

[Joanne in NJ]

Oh my, German.... are bells ringing

cornering them into avoidance to make them react with a ferocious
fear-biting defensive instinct.

I think I've got one of these dogs...He's come a long way (and we've gone round and round)...Maybe, maybe not.

He IS a doberman, and he IS over standard. Came out of a small private rescue and I have no idea of his history. I'm regionally close enough to "that place".

He would put on the big display, growling and snarling, hard eye contact was enough to set him off. When I first got him, he would not make eye contact at all, always showing the whites.

I've found that the more I upped the intensity, with worse he would "lose it". Couple times there that dog had to be SURE he was gonna die in the next 3 seconds. And I still couldn't back him down. Hey, it's not for lack of trying

My husband said in 25 years of marriage I've never seen you lose your temper like that. There was no doubt in his mind I was serious. Well, that wasn't working- on to Plan B.

The behaviourists suggested I not put him in a submissive posture, that I was just scaring him more. That I should ignore him and not play the game.

We've gotten to where we can live with each other, but, wow... is he a difficult dog.He's a mommas boy now, but it's been a long hard road. One I would prefer not to have to walk again.

Now, if I could just get my idiot husband to stop yelling at that dog.... One of them has to display some brains...

[Ales]

Where can I learn more about prey drive vs defense drive. Or, maybe I am trying to understand one of my rots better. I do not know this rots history. But, it was obvious that he had been mistreated. He had marks on his belly and ears. He was very afraid of men of certain demeanor. He also would duck, crawl, or hide and shake when a person would raise their hand or voice. He was afraid of a lease or any rope. He would not come through a doorway if you were in it. After about 1.5 years of work he began to restore his self confidence and trust in people, except for men of certain build, etc. Today after 3 years he really seems to continue to blossom. Only today he keeps these male types at bay, saying you are not to come to my home, if he is left unsupervised. We supervise him around strangers, etc. This has developed over the past year. He is and has been very protective of me. He is a very affectionate dog. His favorite place is in your lap, all 104 LBs.
He is an intense dog, very obediant and more dependant on your approval then your typical rot. Most of his behavioral problems occur from his intensive play then his aggression. I am very active with my rots, hearding, and begining other activites. We live in a rual area and there are not rot clubs that I know of. We have enlisted in a obediance class. The main purpose to socialize and help this dog to learn to contain his excitment. We have a tire swing that the dogs play with. This dog keeps developing. But, I need to know more about what I am developing in him. The other rottie is laid back, wait and see attitude. He is more independant, self contained, and response to commands more slowly. But, due to his style, I actually have had better luck with him in herding lessons etc. I would like to understand my dogs behavior better. And to know how to procede with his development. He seems to have alot of tallent, but I am concerned that it could be lead the wrong way?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by German Vanegas:
I agree with FredAl and Mick.

I also like to add that "Kimbertal" protection dog trainers work dogs in a wrongly instigated defense drive method ("do or die"), and that those trainers do not develop their dogs in prey drive, which affects the correct bite, comfort, self-confidence and motivation. Consequently, those so-called protection dog trainers are known for ruining many otherwise good dogs, by cornering them into avoidance to make them react with a ferocious fear-biting defensive instinct. Or even worse, by making dogs to become overly aggressive, bordering with vicious, due to too much defense drive provocation and lack of prey drive work.</font>

[This message has been edited by Ales (edited January 17, 2001).]

[Joanne in NJ]

Aikido, Please check your private messages at the bottom of the forum screen... Joanne