Is it bad dogs? Or bad dog owners?!

[Tenaj]

German, Stand up and take a bow for that last post! (Thundering applause, from me at least). I totally agree with you. Most children that are bit/attacked by dogs ( I dare say) are instances in which there was no provocation, no justification whatsoever. My best friend was attacked by a doberman mix when she was very young. This dog was her aunt's pet and she was visiting. She went outside to play on the swings and the dog( in outdoor run), jumped the pen and attacked for no apparent reason. The aunt saw it happen and ran out the back door but not quick enough. I think, if I remember correctly, my friend was 3 years old. She has scars zigzaging all over her face to this day. I can't imagine seeing that happen to my child! I was also attacked by a dobie, a female that had lived down the street from us for years. I laid on the road while this dog viciously and repeatedly attacked me. I covered my face or I'm sure she would have gotten that. I could see my friend's face the whole attack and that's why I curled up and protected my face. But she did rip up the back of my neck, my back in a few places, by thighs horribly, and the backs of my legs. The sins my friend and I commited were being children. Selena playing and I walking with my nephew and laughing. I don't know why that dog came after me nor do I care. All I know is that I could have easily died. My nephew could have been killed as she went after him first. Throwing my arms in the air to distract her and screaming so that Allen could get away. This was my transgression. Did I cause this dog to attack me? Maybe, maybe not. If I hadn't got her attention on me, maybe I would have been spared or she may have attacked me after she finished with my nephew who was a toddler. I have no doubt in my mind that she would have killed Allen, my nephew. He ran as soon as he saw her and kept running. Why are alot of doglovers so quick to blame the children? Disbelief? Believing that no dog like your Pookie would attack and even kill children? Believe it. It happens! It's probably happening somewhere right now while we talk about it. Whether it be irresponsible owners, breeders who don't give a dam*, parents negligence.... Children are dying! My children could be attacked by a dog, a family pet. My children could be mauled by a dog. My children could die from a dog attack. How sad is that? Children are the true innocents here. Not the irresponsible breeders, not the parents, not the owners, not the dogs! I probably would have reacted in the same way as German did above. I know how it feels to be so scared, knowing that this dog wants to rip you apart, praying that someone will save you.... Wondering if they'll make it in time.... It is so frightening to me now, thinking about it. Think of the children. I was one of the lucky ones. I have no horribly deforming scars, mostly ones that aren't seen by the general public. But others aren't as lucky like my best friend Selena, her face bears the scars to this day, a reminder to her everyday of how unpredictable dogs can be. And then there are those who don't make it through the attack. Too sad for words....

[German Vanegas]

winniecnm,
I personally think that shifting the focus of this issue, concerning unscrupulous breeders and irresponsible dog owners, to: "children need to learn dog etiquette" (instead of: dog owners need to be responsible enough and control their dogs), somewhat wrongly relieves the dog's owner burden of responsibility implied in owning a large powerful breed.

For instance, I am of the opinion that children less than 12 years old should always be very close supervised when they are interacting with a dog, particularly if is a large breed. Many things may trigger an unexpected or unwanted response. Remember: canine bahavior is not simple matter. It is a fact that some dog owners take for granted their dogs' temperaments and that's how "accidents" happen ("It was your kid's fault! My dog has never biten anybody before!")

If we keep emphasizing the responsibility on parents and children, as in "Rottweilers are nice doggies, all you have to do you children and people is learn how to deal with them", then we are seriously downplaying the importance of RESPONSIBLE DOG OWNERSHIP AND ETHICAL BREEDING.

Anyway, go and read the thread titled "Sensible dog laws": http://rottweiler.net/rottie/Forums8,/HTML/002133.html

As a dog owner, would you agree with such laws in your own state?

[winniecnm]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by German Vanegas:
winniecnm,
I personally think that shifting the focus of this issue, concerning unscrupulous breeders and irresponsible dog owners, to: "children need to learn dog etiquette" (instead of: dog owners need to be responsible enough and control their dogs), somewhat wrongly relieves the dog's owner burden of responsibility implied in owning a large powerful breed.</font>

I still don't see how you come to the conclusion that I am trying to shift responsibility to the parents and children. Yes, I did say that children need to learn dog etiquitte, but I also stated that dogs need to learn etiquitte and good, stable behavior towards kids too! Who does that?? The owner.

I equate the situation our children face with ANY kind of dog to this: since the parents cannot go around their neighborhood and teach the all bad owners to take better care of their dogs, then they must approach the situation in a matter of defending their kids against those bad owners and bad dogs..THIS DOES NOT SHIFT BLAME, OR RESPONSIBILITY!

Owners are responsible for their dogs.
Dogs should not me left untrained or to run free.
Parents are responsible for their children. Children should not be left with ANY dog unattended.
They seem to be different ideas, but they both apply and are related when dogs are attacking children.

[winniecnm]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by German Vanegas:
What you don't seem to understand is that children become easy prey for aggressive dogs. Canine behavior and canine aggression are not simple matters </font>

I do understand this and that is why two of my solutions were how to protect kids when they are most vulnerable.

This was not meant as an EXCUSE for irresponsible owners, but as a means of helping the most frequently attacked members of our society be a little safer.

Only one of my solutions had to do with the child's behavior toward the animal, the other two as ways parents can protect their kids from these dogs owned by these irresponsible people. I learned the one lesson the hard way when I pulled my labrador's ear with both hands as a very young child and got nailed. Not enough to break the skin, but enough to make a lasting impression on me. We both learned a very good lesson that day. Yet I see parents allowing their child to manhandle their dogs everyday. It is a situation that spells disaster.

With the dog attack on your son...me telling you that you are the responsible party in that incident is like telling my cousin that it was his fault that his baby girl's face got ripped off by a St. Bernard. Not going to happen! But in hindsight, there are always "what ifs" ie. What if I had gone with her to the neighbor's house..she would have knocked on the door and the dog wouldn't have attacked. But the dog had never bitten before...this was a freak accident. But in the five seconds that that dog reacted then drew back after seemingly realizing what it had done, it changed everyone's lives.

There are alot more less educated and less aware people in this world though and they need to know some basic ways to safegaurd their children against agressive dogs. You cannot protect you children ALL of the time...but when the you recognize the opportunity to do so, you need to know HOW.

For example, I'd like to know how many of those bites took place between the family pet and the child when they were left unsupervised, what ones involved a food agressive dog and the child tried to take the food or pet the dog, and every other situation that led to a bite or attack. NOT to lay blame on the child, but determine what factors contributed to the attack and how the OWNER can stop it from happening again.

[winniecnm]

I too can associate with being the subject of the agression of a large dog. I was about 6 years old and was walking down my loong driveway about 100 yards from my house. My neighbor had a very large female GSD at the time and she was with pups. Somehow that day, she pushed through the screen door and at the same time of her escape, saw me in the distance and decided to come charging up to me, teeth snapping, growling, hair standing on end, etc.

I firmly believe the only thing that saved me that day from a severe mauling was remembering what my parents had always told me to do if I was in trouble with a dog. I turned my back to her, unclenched my fists, avoided any eye contact with her, took long, slow deep breaths and sooo slowly walked away with her lunging at my back and neck with every step I took. I could feel her hot breath on my back, arms and legs and hear her snarling and rumbling at me. It was unbearable. I wanted to RUN in the worst way, but I kept on hearing what my parents told me to do, over and over again.

But I somehow managed to convince her that I was not afraid of her or challenging her...and after what seemed like an eternity, she turned away and ran back towards her home. Even then, I kept walking the same way, I did not want to entice her into coming back. I immediately told both my parents what happened and though I will never know what was said, my father and the dog's owner had a "discussion" that night. I never saw that dog outside again.

IMO, every child, needs to at least be told what they can do and how they can at least stand a chance when being approached by a agressive dog. There are some instances that what I did, what I was taught might not help...but it helped me and for that I am very grateful. We teach our kids all sorts of things to protect them from things out of their control..not to talk to strangers, fire drills, what to do if someone offers them drugs, and you can bet the farm that I will also teach them what to do if a dog comes after them.

[Karen J. Reece]

Well once again here I am jumping in at the finish. As someone who has been around dogs all her life and never been attacked I cannot speak from that view but I can say that even as a very small child I was taught the dos and don'ts concerning animals. If people do not start teaching their children at a young age regarding either animals, strangers, guns or life in general then when something does happen why is it such a mystery? It is a known fact that most serial killers first abused small animals as children. This kind of behavior should never be condoned. I have taught my children from infants how to treat animals but we cannot depend on other people doing so. And that is why my dogs are socialized, trained and never left unattended with strangers be they adult or child. Always blaming the dog just doesn't do it for me. If I don't trust people to treat my dogs right then they are not allowed around them. Please quit placing all the blame on the dogs and their owners. I had a brother-in-law who allowed his two year old to grab my cat by the tail and throw it across the room (before I could get to him to stop him). He then told me if the cat ever scratched his kid he would kill my cat. I let him know in on uncertain terms that 1. He would not kill my cat and 2. If he couldn't or wouldn't make his child behave correctly they were not welcome.

[German Vanegas]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Karen J. Reece:
...I can say that even as a very small child I was taught the dos and don'ts concerning animals. If people do not start teaching their children at a young age regarding either animals, strangers, guns or life in general then when something does happen why is it such a mystery? </font>

I totally agree. Parents should provide proper education to their children about how to interact with dogs, teaching them the basic rules to avoid being bit by a dog, that would help to prevent dog bites indeed. However, that is only part of the solution to this worrisome dog biting problem.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Karen J. Reece: It is a known fact that most serial killers first abused small animals as children... </font>

Are you implying that the hundreds of thousands of children bitten by dogs were probably "serial killers in the making"?!?! Do you think they "deserved" to get bitten?! So according to your theory, "most dog bites to children are justified"?!?!... Come on, that's insensitive, doumbfounded and unrealistic!!!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originaly posted by Karen J. Reece:If I don't trust people to treat my dogs right then they are not allowed around them. Please quit placing all the blame on the dogs and their owners.</font>

Congratulations for being a responsible dog owner, however, don't be so blindly fanatic and extremist as to excuse dogs for biting children, particularly KILLING children!

I am FULLY AWARE that the problem about dog bites is due to wanton careless breeding and irresponsible dog ownership, that's why I blame the irresponsible humans while I strongly propose that people be penalized for their dogs' actions, instead of the poor dogs! But please, don't twist it around and put the blame only on children for getting bitten by badly bred and/or raised dogs!!!

BE REALISTIC AND HAVE A HEART!

[This message has been edited by German Vanegas (edited January 11, 2001).]

[Justice]

I think this topic has ran it's course. All opinions have been given.

Justice