The truth about the AKC: showing good, working bad

[German Vanegas]

"Surfing through the net" I found this extremely informative well-written article about some FACTS concerning the American Kennel Club AKC. If you are really serious about dogs, you owe to read it and form your own opinion. Check it out and tell me what you think about it http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif

http://user.mc.net/~jimengel/JimRead/SCORE.htm

[Urbans]

Good article! This really points out why we need to support the AWDF and it's fight for FCI recognition.

[This message has been edited by Urbans (edited January 02, 2001).]

[AngelBunny]

Depressing. "Those who attempt to train..."Americanized Dobermans" for their original purposes find them...insufficient in aggressiveness, courage and character...the breed has been emasculated, stripped of its working character." Sad, terribly sad.

[German Vanegas]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by AngelBunny:
Depressing. "Those who attempt to train..."Americanized Dobermans" for their original purposes find them...insufficient in aggressiveness, courage and character...the breed has been emasculated, stripped of its working character." Sad, terribly sad. </font>

I have to clarify that concept, otherwise is quite misleading. It refers to aggression, courage, and character, needed for protection and guard work; you know, the ORIGINAL working trait that the Doberman Pinscher was bred for. Now, if you are not into protection dogs, you can always get yourself a cuddly dog, like a Golden Retriever, or a lap dog like the Mini Poodle. The point is, why to make a working capable dog into just an exhibionist dog in the show ring?! If you read it in its entirety, you may understand what is all about. By the way, the article also talks about the Rottweiler being converted into a "teddy bear"... See, working dogs are not just for ANYBODY. Because of that, the working traits are being phased out into making dog breeds just show dogs, or plain couch potaots pets. That's sad, very sad http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/frown.gif

[Orville Story]

His facts are incorrect. His understanding of how the AKC opperates is in error. His gripe about what clubs can vote should be addressed to the affiliate Clubs not the AKC. It is the choice of local clubs to be full member or affiliate. Only full members clubs are allowed to vote. If a club is not willing to pay for full member status and send an affiliate to AKC meetings then that is not the fault of the AKC.

The main interest of the full member local clubs is showing so it goes to reason that will be promoted more than any other interest.

If you want to change the way AKC opperates then join a local Full member club and gain support for your ideas. Complaining about how other persons are running things, is like fussing about how my wife cleans the kitchen. The way I look at, if I want the kitchen clean another way then I should do it.

[German Vanegas]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Orville Story:
His facts are incorrect. His understanding of how the AKC opperates is in error. His gripe about what clubs can vote should be addressed to the affiliate Clubs not the AKC...

... Complaining about how other persons are running things, is like fussing about how my wife cleans the kitchen. The way I look at, if I want the kitchen clean another way then I should do it.</font>

1. Other than the "incorrect" understanding of how the clubs can vote, what else in the article is "incorrect"?... You are over looking the entire article. As you may have noticed, is a lenghty writing, and it deals with a lot more than just the clubs' voting power.

2. Well, that's precisely what Engel is trying to do by addressing the people. It is about public awareness, and that's what he is doing so effectively, by writing the article! (which it is shown in many Working Dog websites, you know http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif ). Engel cannot just "overthrow" the presidency of AKC and take control! What he is trying do is to let people know the facts "behind the scenes" about AKC, thus he may get the necessary support from dog owners http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif

By the way, the article is also about working V. showing... http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by German Vanegas (edited January 03, 2001).]

[German Vanegas]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by RottiVet:
Conformation classes are based solely on breed standards, which IS passed on to the next generation.</font>

Indeed they are based on conformation only, I agree. The problem I have is, when the specific distinctive working traits of a given WORKING breed are ignored, totally or partially, in favor of "beauty looks" or mainly conformmation. Some breeders breed just for the "show" http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif

[RottiVet]

Although this is a little off this particular topic, as a vet, I am often confronted with novice purebreed dog owners who have decided to get involved in showing their dogs.

One of the basic misconceptions about dog shows - to these people - is that they are beauty pageants. Dog shows are proof of quality breeding programs of the past (the dog which is showing is the proof) and the betterment of the breed, as a whole, for the future.

Novices are often surprised to learn that their spayed or neutered but registered pet is ineligible. Although this animal MAY be proof of good breeding, it is incapable of fulfilling the second part of the dog show mandate. Because it is a genetic dead end, it is irrelevant as part of that breed's betterment program.

Trials, etc. emphasize training, which cannot be passed on. Temperament, yes. Training, no.

Conformation classes are based solely on breed standards, which IS passed on to the next generation.

[Orville Story]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by German Vanegas:
what else in the article is "incorrect"?... You are over looking the entire article. As you may have noticed, is a lenghty writing, and it deals with a lot more than just the clubs' voting power.


By the way, the article is also about working V. showing... http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by German Vanegas (edited January 03, 2001).]</font>

The article is lengthy so I will not attempt to address all of the errors. But I will address the ones that he uses in the beginning of this rambling article.

Already in Paragraph one he makes a false assumption about the reason the clubs vote as they do.

In Paragraph two he makes a statement that the European Dog clubs are under the authority of the Governments. That is not true. The FCI and AKC are very similar in the way they operate. They are different, but the FCI does not have authority bestowed on it from any Government body.

In paragraph five he makes a claim that the AKC has an agenda to turn every breed into a "Show Dogs". If this were true then would it not reason that before you could register your dog the parents would have to be Champions? If this were true why would the AKC go through expense and effort to hold working trials such as Hunts, Obedience, Tracking, Agility, and other working events?
He makes this claim and does a poor job of proving his point.

Paragraph nine is a prefect example of the nonsense of the whole article. "they wield immense aggregate power in that they control the selection of jugdes for their shows and send a voting delegate to AKC. To my knowedge the size and legal status of these clubs are not public available."

Who else would select the Judges for any show other than the hosting club? Is this not more of a duty than immense aggregate power?
Did he even once suggest how else a judge should be selected? Did he even once show how this is inappropriate? All he did was hint that this amount of power of any club that "only" puts on a show or two a year is wrong.

By the way putting on a show takes a lot of work and dedication on a clubs behalf. It is not uncommon for a poorly run show to loss hundreds of dollars. Why do these clubs do these events, because the clubs are made up of dog fanciers. The dog people love their dogs and their breed, so they put in the hard work and take a chance on financing the event. Have you ever thought about the cost of hosting the Judges, rent on a Convention Center, cost of insurance, cost of the Superintendent, and many other miscellaneous cost?

Sure these clubs are the ones sending the delegates to vote on AKC policy. They should be the ones because these clubs and the members of such are the ones most effective by AKC policy. These clubs are the protectors of the breed.

Bottom line his article was poorly written because he makes claims and accusations that are never substantiated. The truth of the matter he really never took the time to simply ask any club for its legal status or size. These clubs are not required to give a public record of size, but it is not a seceret society either. You can find the legal status of any at the county level if you wish. All he had to do in most cases is simply ask for a club newletter.

It is a easy thing to write an article if you don't have to prove your points. He did site a few other sources but he never quoted them to show how they prove his points. Just alluding to them is nothing more than padding.

It would have been better had the author taken the time to research a little more than to make claims based on his ignorance.
His whole aggrument suffers, because it is based on false assumptions.

[Orville Story]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by German Vanegas:
Indeed they are based on conformation only, I agree. The problem I have is, when the specific distinctive working traits of a given WORKING breed are ignored, totally or partially, in favor of "beauty looks" or mainly conformmation. Some breeders breed just for the "show" http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif

</font>

The AKC provides other activities for the Rottweiler to demonstrate his working ability. Tracking, Obedience, Herding and Agility gives the Rottweiler the opportunity prove its working drives.

The main interest is the conformation show not because of some AKC agenda, but because that is the main interest of the dog owners across the country.

[German Vanegas]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Orville Story:
The AKC provides other activities for the Rottweiler to demonstrate his working ability. Tracking, Obedience, Herding and Agility gives the Rottweiler the opportunity prove its working drives.

</font>

I was not talking about AKC, I was referring specifically about breeders striving to maintain "perfect" conformation as a number one priority, thus ignoring, partially or totally, working traits; which in turn requires the correct temperament! I am of the opinion, based on my own experience, that some breeders breed just for the "show" and not much else http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif

[German Vanegas]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Orville Story:
The FCI and AKC are very similar in the way they operate. They are different, but the FCI does not have authority bestowed on it from any Government body. </font>

Well, FCI is an interantional club and AKC is a national club, both private independent organizations with similar goals but different policies. And I know of many differences between the two, as you must know them too.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Orville Story:In paragraph five he makes a claim that the AKC has an agenda to turn every breed into a "Show Dogs". If this were true then would it not reason that before you could register your dog the parents would have to be Champions? </font>

That's exactly the point: to perpetuate show champion lineages as the true reason to breed, more so than working champion lines. Are schutzhund (Obedience, Tracking & Protection) titled lines undesirable to AKC?... Well, it must be! AKC's agenda is to keep up with the show conformation lines as the number one priority, obviously.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Orville Story:Paragraph nine is a prefect example of the nonsense of the whole article. "they wield immense aggregate power in that they control the selection of jugdes for their shows and send a voting delegate to AKC. To my knowedge the size and legal status of these clubs are not public available."</font>

Engel is talking about those "extraordinary" AKC judges with the uncanny ability to judge and critique ALL DOG BREEDS ("all-rounders")! Is that really feasible?... Are "all-breed" judges more qualify than speciality breed specific judges?... I don't think so.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Orville Story:By the way putting on a show takes a lot of work and dedication on a clubs behalf. It is not uncommon for a poorly run show to loss hundreds of dollars. Why do these clubs do these events, because the clubs are made up of dog fanciers </font>

You may be talking about local breed clubs, but not about AKC. Are you going to tell me that AKC show events lose money?... I didn't think so.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Orville Story:Bottom line his article was poorly written because he makes claims and accusations that are never substantiated. The truth of the matter he really never took the time to simply ask any club for its legal status or size. These clubs are not required to give a public record of size, but it is not a seceret society either. </font>

You have always demonstrated to be a staunch defender of AKC, as well as an avid competitor in AKC shows, therefore, your harsh critisism about the article was expected, just as much as it shouldn't surprise you that I agree with most of what Engel stated in it. We see things from our own convenient personal views http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Orville Story:It would have been better had the author taken the time to research a little more than to make claims based on his ignorance.
His whole aggrument suffers, because it is based on false assumptions.</font>

The author did research and then he expressed his personal opinion in this controversial issue. See, as much as you are giving an authoritarian opinion, Engel and myself are also entitled to our own personal opinions, seen from a different view than your own http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif



[This message has been edited by German Vanegas (edited January 04, 2001).]

[Orville Story]

Yep your right some breeders focus entirely on conformation. Yep it would be better if they cared as much about the temperament of the Rottweiler. I agree with you on those points.

[Orville Story]

His article is poorly written because he makes assumptions that he knows nothing about. You make the same assumptions as I will point out. Your are entitled to your opinions, but you are making them without knowing how AKC functions.

Sure I know of many differences between the two clubs, but the author of the article implied that European clubs are under the authority of governments bodies. This is a falsehood. That was what you ask me about, other false statements in the article.

The author goes to great lengths to make the AKC appear to have an agenda to make every breed a show breed. The first 16 paragraphs deal with nothing but flaming the AKC with many incorrect statements and conclusions. So when he argues that Schutzhund should be recognized by the AKC, his agrument is based on to many falsehoods to carry water. He does not even mention Schutzhund until paragraph seventeen.

Schutzhund lines are not undesirable to AKC. He never proves this point, he only draws a false conclusion. The AKC does not recognize the sport of Schutzhund so any dog with a sch title will not be recorded by the AKC. That is a far cry from saying that Schutzhund lines are udesirable. If that were the case then AKC would not accept these lines into their registry, but they do with welcome arms. On another note the AKC does not recognize FCI conformations titles, according to the author's reasoning this would mean that AKC is against FCI conformation show. This is simply not true.

AKC does not have a priority; Shows, Obedience, Herding, Tracking, Hunting, Agility, ect. are all treated the same. The dog fanciers across the country prefer to do conformation more than the other events. The AKC only sanctions these events. It is up to local clubs to put them on, and dog people to show an interest in them.

Local breed clubs are the ones that put on the Shows not AKC. They can lose money if the entry is low. The AKC's only role in the hundreds of shows across the country is to Sanction the event. The Local club which is a member of the AKC must follow all AKC rules and regulations. Each competitor enters such events under the rules of the AKC, but it is the local club that holds the shows.

I can tell you that yes sometimes they do lose money. When this money is lost, who pays the tab? It is the members of that local club that put on the show so Dog people could enjoy their dogs. It is those people that send the delegates to AKC. Even if they don't lose money, they are the ones that put in hundreds of volunter hours into the events.

I am a staunch supporter of the ACK. I belong to an AKC affiliated club, Birmingham Obedience Training Club. We don't send a delegate to the AKC because we choose not to.
We have lost money hosting AKC events, we did so this year with 132 entries in our Obedience event. We did so last year with our Tracking event. But we are a dog club and putting on these events help promote the work abilities of all dog breeds. As a club we are willing to put in tremedious time, effort, and sometimes our own monies so our sport and dogs have a venue.

This is the same situation for hundreds of AKC clubs across the country. The same clubs that author claims to have "immense aggrigate power". He makes these claims without every understanding how these clubs function.

You are entitled to your opinion no doubt, but if anyone is interested in basing those opinions on facts it would seem they would get the facts straight about how the AKC operates before they paint them as the evil empire.

I can say that without doubt his article is based on falsehoods.

I also belong to another clubs mentioned in the article that promotes Schutzhund, the USRC. I am a member of both the USRC, an a member of Magic City Rottweiler Club, a local USRC Club that promotes Schutzhund. I also belong to Central Schutzhund of Ala, and Jefferso Co Schutzhund club, and United States Schutzhund club. I am an active member of each of these clubs.

As an active member of an ACK obedience Club and as an active member of five schutzhund clubs I can say without doubt that while the AKC does not promote the sport of Schutzhund, the AKC does not have a policy that schutzhund lines are undesirable.




[This message has been edited by Orville Story (edited January 04, 2001).]

[German Vanegas]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Orville Story:The AKC does not recognize the sport of Schutzhund so any dog with a sch title will not be recorded by the AKC.</font>

Yep! That's so true!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Orville Story:On another note the AKC does not recognize FCI conformations titles, according to the author's reasoning this would mean that AKC is against FCI conformation show. This is simply not true.</font>

You well know that there are major discrepancies between the FCI and AKC, such as breeds recognition, judging and scoring system, working trials, etc. They both definitely have a common goal but with very different policies http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Orville Story:AKC does not have a priority; Shows, Obedience, Herding, Tracking, Hunting, Agility, ect. are all treated the same. The dog fanciers across the country prefer to do conformation more than the other events. The AKC only sanctions these events. It is up to local clubs to put them on, and dog people to show an interest in them.</font>

I concur. Even though there are all those optional events, the AKC breed fanciers prefer to conglomerate around the show rings than to participate in any working trials. That alone says a lot about showing V. working... http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Orville Story:I can tell you that yes sometimes they do lose money. When this money is lost, who pays the tab? It is the members of that local club that put on the show so Dog people could enjoy their dogs. It is those people that send the delegates to AKC. Even if they don't lose money, they are the ones that put in hundreds of volunter hours into the events. </font>

I agree. Local breed clubs may sometimes lose money, but not AKC. You know that AKC has plenty of revenue and budget surplus http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Orville Story:We have lost money hosting AKC events, we did so this year with 132 entries in our Obedience event. We did so last year with our Tracking event. But we are a dog club and putting on these events help promote the work abilities of all dog breeds. As a club we are willing to put in tremedious time, effort, and sometimes our own monies so our sport and dogs have a venue.</font>

*sigh* Once again, sadly enough that is the choice of most AKC people. Typical AKC breeders and breed fanciers prefer to show conformation in the ring than to compite with their dogs in any working trials http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/frown.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Orville Story:I also belong to another clubs mentioned in the article that promotes Schutzhund, the USRC. I am a member of both the USRC, an a member of Magic City Rottweiler Club, a local USRC Club that promotes Schutzhund. I also belong to Central Schutzhund of Ala, and Jefferso Co Schutzhund club, and United States Schutzhund club. I am an active member of each of these clubs.</font>

I am not putting you on trial Orville. I am fully aware of your dedication and commitment to our beloved breed. For whatever is worth, I admire you and respect you for that.

Anyway, it's always great to debate with you! http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by German Vanegas (edited January 04, 2001).]