Sad, sad day

[Rottnlove]

I don't blame you for feeling the way you do. :(

Definitely take the others advice and get her tested and evaluated. She deserves a chance before you decide to send her to another home.

Lisa

[shybird]

Is it possible that this dog is sick? Ear problem or eye problem? The reason I ask is because you said didn't "realize" it was your wife. I would think about having the dog checked by a vet. There could be a real valid reason for the behavior. Please look into the medical aspect, and go from there. I do understand your concern for the safty of your child, but I can hear the love you have for your dog..... Pease don't jump to anything till you have all the answers from professionals. Vet, Evaluator, and Trainer needs to be in on this decision.

[tilerspop]

I am so very sorry to hear of your situation. You are correct in saying mistakes were made, but don't make another by acting in haste. We here do not know your living situation, and we certainly can't even pretend to make decisions about your family situation. Only you can do that, and with that comes responsibility. We can offer advice and counsel, we can relate our experiences, but remember those experiences are colored by our perceptions and life styles. Choose wisely.

From what you have said, it sounds like you need to get Zodiac checked by a vet. I have a similar situation with Suzy. She barks and snarls at me when I come in from outside or up from the basement. It turns out she was going blind. She could here some one coming but not tell who it was until I got very close and she could smell me, consequently she was on guard.

While it is true that the pup should never have been left alone with an adult dog, recrimination is a waste of everyones time. Let's leave that behind and examine what happened. You say it appeared that Zodiac over corrected the pup. That would indicate to me that the death was accidental. Zodiac did not intend to kill. That is an important distinction here. It sounds as if the dog has been pretty good 'til now.

As I stated before, you have a responsibility here; to yourself, your family, the dog, and the new owner if you so choose. Have the dog checked by a vet and a behaviorist. Try to determine what really happened and why before you relocate the dog.

[rottmommie]

MANY a dog with a behavior problem has lived a long happy life with their human family......some of those dogs are here on this forum now, because the humans spent the money, (BIG money) to have them trained by and with someone that specializes in behavior issues, that evaluated the dog and decided it was capable of learning.....
just food for thought. What would happen if this was a two child home and one child severely hurt the other......
I understand that this is not the case, but then again, I am not the type to give up either.
Do what is best for you, but please do not close your mind to all possibilities before you take action.
I have had housecats for years, even after one of my dogs killed a kitten outside. He never did it again. He sleeps with the cats.....they are his "pack". I beleive he really thought that the kitten WAS a big fluffy toy.
It was not my rottweiler that did this....

[Grendl]

One of my dogs killed a family member; it was a horrible experience, but I d0 not blame the dog. Rather I blame myself for not taking better precuations. The dog has not been banished from the home, and I love her just as much. She is what she is. We have worked harder with her training, and changed our household routines to prevent the situation from recurring. Also, I think that leaving the pup and the adult dog alone together for a day is an entirely different situation than losing sight of a child and a dog for a second while you blow your nose. A small child should never be left unsupervised with any dog of any age. A dog will not learn socialization skills if he/she is not exposed to social situations. Please consider additional training for Zodiac before you give her away.

[ZodiacsDad]

All good replies,

some more background:
Wife is alpha, and Z has never bit another human, we forbid "teeth on skin" even with play, from puppy stage up. If she accidently rubs our hands with her teeth, she cowers, knowing she did wrong, we then forgive and praise.

The barking at wife situation was like this. Z has a 30ft tie we put her on to have bathroom time, or outside time without the kennel. The wife was working in the front yard, and walked around the side of the house, to get to things in the backyard, as she's done a hundred times with Z on tie. She just started going off, and it took a full minute of talking to this vicious side of her, to get her to realize it's "mom", then she cowered, very sorry like.

One other instance: a friend of mine went into the backyard before me, and started to pet Z. Z was blinking rapidily, and slightly pulling her head away, from the seated position. When I came around the corner, she saw me, then decided to 'turn it on' and go ballistic against my friend. It took a full minute to calm her down, and introduce the two again, and have start a good relationship between the two. Z was 2yrs 2-3months, and it was the first time they met. Don't mind the barking against a stranger thing, but it should have been that way from the start, not after seeing me, oops time to protect the house, dad's watching.

Z was spaded as early as we could do it, and she went to pupply class, and was the best of the lot. We did level 1 or 2 after, and stopped when she learned the leash routine the way we wanted, we were not going to do dog olypics with her, so the obedient part was as far as we wanted to go.

One thing I wish we did with her more, interact more with more dogs. She visits, or is visited by about 5-6 dogs on the regular, and interacts with our immediate family the most, about 8 of us. Living in a rural area, she is not exposed to many strange, new people.

She generally barks, threatens delivery 'Men' when I'm not home. If I'm home, she wants to lick any stranger to death, great watch dog, he he

I'll have her checked with our vet to see if they see any abnormalities, has not since the wife incident, and ask the vet for a behavior specialist. If they find her to be abnormally 'skittish..... sounds like the best plan is to put her down. Othewise, we are going to have to find a way to keep her in the family.

Not sure if this part came out about the puppy situation. The UPS man delivered a package to our door that day, while the wife and I were at work. We assume that 'intruding' sparked the 'fit', and the puppy just got between her and the fence, a misdirected moment of anger.

My wife and I accept the mistake of putting them together, wholeheartedly. It's just a matter of trust and risk.

I think Cocker Spaniels are like the #1 dog bite in the US, but the Rotts, Pits... make the news for reason, one bite, one shake = damage. A bad time to realize this, unfortuneate for the whole family, including Zodiac.

I'll keep you up on the Vet, therapist results. THANKS ALL!!!

[Judy Chrusch]

This is just my oppinion, but the first thing I'd do is NOT tie her out for ANY length of time. This is just adding to her already unstable behavior. Can't her outside time be w/o tieing her? She needs to be observed by a trainer and a vet visit, perhaps she has some type of neurological problem. I feel sorry for this poor girl as something is obviously wrong :(. How much exercise and playtime and interacting does she get with you and your wife? Rotties are a working breed and need things to do, they love to work, run, play and do obedience. If you are going to keep her please do what has been suggested ASAP but w/o a consultation from the specialists it isn't fair to pass her on to someone else or put her down, JMO. I hope all works out but this poor thing needs help and soon. Take care, I know you're still grieving from your loss and this is the last thing you want to think about but you must decide what you're going to do.

Judy

[TrinityRun]

Yep, unfortunate situation. One of those live and learn lessons in life.

However, out of the bad can come some good - it just depends upon how you look at it. Hindsight is 20/20 and in reflecting back perhaps you could see little red flags along the way that will help you in the future in raising a dog. You pointed some issues in your earlier posts. Z barking at your wife. Prior to that, you posted she was a trustworthy dog - could let your daughter take bones out of her mouth....also spoke of questionable breeding and lineage resulting in behavioral issues.

Again, with the help of the hindsight, I hope you can see these were problems - accidents waiting to happen. I may be in the minority here but I feel this dog would be better off placed in a more experienced home where these issues can be effectively addressed. I place emphasis on a more experienced home - as anything equal or less than will only work against the dog.

I think your decision to place her came after a lot of soul-searching and I believe your heart is in the right place for all involved. I am also inclined to agree with Judy that perhaps the Rottweiler isn't the right breed of dog for you at this time. Maybe down the road, when the kids are older, a different dog - you may have much more success.

One of the other benefits that come from this is the experience and education you have gained with this breed over the last 3 years. Undoubtedly, you will have retained it and be in a position to help another person down the road.

Best of luck to you and your family - and to Z!

[ILoveRotts]

ZodiacsDad,

I have a differing opinion than most I have read here. My opinion comes from a bad experience and also the fact that I have a 4 month old daughter.

The part of your post that hit home & scared me was the fact that Zodiac did not recognize your wife. We had a Rott (rescued but would guess originally came from a backyard breeder). He was also dog aggressive. He bit my Rott on several occasion (fortunately Drake was big and survived). We tried training (my husband is a very experienced trainer) and tried to explain away the incidents but they kept getting more frequent & worse in nature. He never showed aggression to people. Finally we had to put him down. He was just too unpredicatable and we were afraid it would end up with people aggression. It was no way to live.

That was before the human baby. I would never live with any kind of aggression from a dog and have small children. Like you said it is too great a risk. 1 incident would be enough.

And to the comment that maybe a Rott is not right for you. This may be true - however not all Rotts are created equal.

We couldn't deal with an aggressive backyard bred Rott but we have had 4 beautiful, well trained, well behaved, rescued Rotts in our home with never an incident. 3 have their CGC & 1 is a retired Certified Therapy dog.

Weigh everything you've heard & make the decision that is right for you.

My heart goes out to you & your wife. This is a very difficult decision - I know I've been there. Only you know the entire situation so trust your instincts.

Kris

[LavenderRott]

Lack of recognition and rapid blinking? Could your dog be epileptic? I have had 3 that were (non rotts). Seizures vary in strength and the mild ones are barely noticable but the dog is really confused afterwards. You may want to ask your vet.

[RottnByrd]

Originally posted by ILoveRotts


We couldn't deal with an aggressive backyard bred Rott but we have had 4 beautiful, well trained, well behaved, rescued Rotts in our home with never an incident. 3 have their CGC & 1 is a retired Certified Therapy dog.

If these dogs are rescued how do you know that they are not backyard bred? I am only asking this because my girl is from a BYB and she couldnt be sweeter! I think that the fact that zodiacsdad does not know the genetic background of Z is a big issue but I dont think it is the only issue. I have seen a large number of beautifully behaved rescued dogs of unknown backgrounds.

IMO this dog doesnt sound unpredictable or overly aggressive. She killed a puppy- big mistake but she didnt know that... she is a wolf decendent and may have a high prey drive or as mentioned before it may have been an accident. As far as the barking incident goes, if I had Dakota tied up in the backyard and I suprised her walking around back she'd bark too... Im not sure how good a dog's eye sight is but I know that they rely more heavily on smell. It may just be that Z could not see who was coming into the yard.

One final point, you may be giving her mixed signals. I am saying this because I got a little confused reading your last post. You seem upset that she only barked at your friend when you were there and not when he approached her alone. Well do you or don't you want her to be on guard when she is tied up? It seems like she was giving you the action she thought you expected; maybe she was doing the same for your wife.

Just a few thoughts.... Good luck with this decision, I only hope that you will aggressively look for a good home for this girl (with no dogs or cats :))

[clastala]

I am sorry for what has happened. I had never thought of something like this happening. I kennel our 7 year old beagle and 6 month old Rottweiler together when I am at work. They have always done swell but I will never do it again. Thank you for the warning. You have saved us from possible heartache.

Carol

[rottmommie]

I feel I must add another comment, then I will let it rest.
I feel that anyone willing to commit to the training and learning involved in becoming more experienced is capable of keeping a rottie, including a rottie that has made a mistake.
How else would a person become more experienced?
If a person can find it in their heart, budget and mind to make this commitment that is a wonderful thing.
I would also check on the epilepsy issue, as well as other medical issues. It sounds like you have a sweet dog, that made a mistake. Whatever the problem is, a vet and a behavior specialist should be consulted.
I can see that you have an open mind, and a heartbreaking situation on your hands. I wish you the best of luck and prayers.....

[MARYDVM]

The behavior described with the friend might be seizure related, but it sounds like classic fear/aggression. Leaning back and blinking the eyes are avoidance behaviors, if she hadn't been tied she probably would have run away instead. As soon as you appeared, the presence of the pack "alpha" boosted her confidence so that she showed aggression to drive off the unwanted attention from your friend. The act of cowering when verbally reprimanded is not normal for a stable dog either. Usually, animal aggression (killing the puppy)is not related to human aggression(injuring a child) but it sounds like there are other issues with this dog. An evaluation by an experienced trainer or behaviorist could clarify things. If fear aggression is diagnosed, then rehoming will be very difficult. The average family is not capable of dealing with this dangerous behavior.

[TrinityRun]

Originally posted by rottmommie
I feel I must add another comment, then I will let it rest.
I feel that anyone willing to commit to the training and learning involved in becoming more experienced is capable of keeping a rottie, including a rottie that has made a mistake.
How else would a person become more experienced?
If a person can find it in their heart, budget and mind to make this commitment that is a wonderful thing.
I would also check on the epilepsy issue, as well as other medical issues. It sounds like you have a sweet dog, that made a mistake. Whatever the problem is, a vet and a behavior specialist should be consulted.
I can see that you have an open mind, and a heartbreaking situation on your hands. I wish you the best of luck and prayers.....

Mary just hit the nail on the head and illustrated my point. It's one thing if you want to commit to training a dog with these kinds of issues but to do so you first must be experienced enough to read the behaviors - if you are going to effectively correct them. You gain that kind of experience over time, by attending seminars, joining clubs, training etc.

In my opinion, the OP does not have that experience at this point in time and I concur with his decision to place the dog. I believe it's the best thing for everyone involved.