Car Chasing

[UnclLou]

I’m going to disagree with the other posters who say that the Ecollar is not the tool for this job. I think it’s the PERFECT tool for training dogs not to chase cars. As with any tool there’s always a need for reinforcement.

The dog learned not to chase cars when the Ecollar was on and then you removed it. The dog quickly learned that when the Ecollar was on not to chase and when it was not on, she could chase. This is not the problem of the tool but how it’s used. It will happen with any training tool. The mistake made was in thinking that for some reason this training would last forever. I doubt that anyone would think that if you had done this with, for example a pinch collar, that it would last forever; why would anyone think it would with an Ecollar?

You should have purchased an Ecollar as soon as the training was complete so that you could reinforce it when necessary. You can get a top quality Ecollar from Dogtra for as little as $150. Avoid the less expensive ones available from the pet stores as they will quickly prove unreliable.

Once you have it you’ll find that it can be used for all sorts of training, not just stopping your dog from chasing cars.

People who train this with a leash and corrections soon find that when the dog is off leash, the behavior occurs again. People who train this with treats or other purely positive methods find occasional success unless the dog is highly driven to chase.

This is an extremely dangerous behavior that can easily result in the dog being killed. It must be stopped as soon as possible.

Here’ a little something to help get you started.

FITTING THE COLLAR TO THE DOG

When fitting the Ecollar on the dog it must as high on his neck as it can go, just beneath his jaw. The strap must also go very high, just behind the dog’s ears. A dog’s neck tapers as it joins to his shoulders, that is, it gets bigger. If the Ecollar is put on too loosely it will fit further down on his neck. If this is done, when the dog puts his head down as when sniffing the ground, the Ecollar will move towards the dog’s head, loosening and the contact points won’t make good contact with the skin of the dog’s neck. Arcing may occur and this greatly raises the discomfort level of the stimulation and should be avoided, as it’s not repeatable.

The strap must be snug on the dog’s neck. If the dog starts to wheeze, the strap is pulled too tightly. SNUG is the operative word. If the dog shakes his head (such as when shaking off water) and the box containing the electronic parts moves to a different position on his neck, it’s too loose. If you can easily grasp the box and move it to another location, it’s too loose. But even if the Ecollar is put on snugly, if it’s too low on the dog’s neck, it will slide up and loosen when the dog lowers his head to the ground.

HOW TO FIND YOUR DOG’S WORKING LEVEL OF STIMULATION

Introduction

Often when I’m training I’m approached by people who want to know what the “thing” is on the dog’s neck. If I’m not with a client, I’ll give them a brief explanation. When I get to the part where I mention giving the dog a stimulation, they’ll usually respond with an unhappy face and say, “You mean you shock the dog?”

I’ll take the Ecollar off the dog and have them feel the stimulation. I also do this with all my clients and people who attend my seminars. Most people are quite fearful because of their past experience with electricity. (refer back to the chapter on Myths.) When I get to the level that they first feel it I tell them that’s where I work with the dog. Nearly universally when that happens they say, “Is that all it is?”

If they have children with them they invariably want to feel it too. When I find the level where they first feel it, THEY GIGGLE!.

I hardly think that a tool that makes children giggle can be called abusive, cruel, or inhumane when it’s used as I do.

The Process

You want to work the dog at the lowest level of stimulation that he can just perceive. Put the dog on a leash and take him outside. Let him settle down so he’s not fixated on anything or highly distracted by anything. With some dogs it may take a few minutes for him to settle down. If he’s sniffing the ground, he’s distracted. If he’s looking at something and his ears are standing up (for dogs whose ears do this) he’s distracted. When his ears relax and stick out to the side rather than straight up, he’s ready to check his level.

For the Dogtra Ecollars which have the continuously variable stimulation, set the dial on “0” and press the button. Hold it down and VERY slowly turn it up. If you can move it in increments of 1/16" of movement per second you’re in the right ballpark. After about 5–6 seconds release the button then press and hold it again. (this will reset the “time out” feature.) Continue to SLOWLY turn the dial up until you see some sign that the dog is feeling the stimulation. There are many such signs. One of the most common is that the dog will sit down and scratch as if a flea is biting him. Some signs are subtler than that though. They include an ear flick, a quick look at the ground directly in front of the dog, a pulling back as if a grasshopper landed on the dog, moving to another place, locking up (rigidity of the legs). Sometimes all that is noticeable is a furrowing of the dog’s brow. A dog may also rear up, raising his front legs off the ground. A dog who does this may do so because of a startle reflex. He’s not in pain he’s just been startled. (Read on for details of how to tell if a dog is in pain from an Ecollar stimulation.)

The technique is just a little bit different for any other brand of Ecollar because of the different way that the stimulation level is set. For the TriTronics series of collars that offer continuous stimulation set it on the lowest level available. Press the button and check for a result. For those Ecollars that have three buttons that give you a low for one button, medium for the other and high for both together, press the “low button.” If the dog doesn’t respond, go to the next level on the dial and press the “low button.” Use only the “low” button until you find the dog’s level. This allows you to use the medium and high buttons when the dog ignores you later in the training.

If you use another brand or model of Ecollar you’ll have to adapt how they work to this philosophy and method. The idea is to be able to stimulate the dog at a very low level, where he just feels it.

You may find that your dog vocalizes and rears up when he gets a stimulation. There are two reasons that a dog will vocalize with an Ecollar stimulation. One is that he’s in pain. Since I’m using the continuous mode, if this is the reason that a dog is vocalizing, he’ll continue to vocalize as long as I hold down the button. If this is occurring YOU’RE TOO HIGH. Another reason that a dog may vocalize is from surprise. Think of yourself sitting in a theater watching a scary movie. Someone taps you on the shoulder and you jump and involuntarily make a noise. This is not from being hurt; it’s from being startled. I think that the first reason given for a dog to vocalize is unfair, especially at the teaching phase of using the Ecollar but the second reason is acceptable. The dog isn’t being hurt; he’s just being surprised.

One giveaway that the dog is surprised is that he only vocalizes for an instant, even though continuous stimulation is being applied. If he was being hurt, he’d continue to vocalize as long as the button was being held down because it would continue to hurt. If you’re using the nick or tap mode and the dog vocalizes each time the button is pressed, YOU’RE TOO HIGH.

Be aware that some dogs are just plain vocal and will make noise, “just because.” These dogs will make noise before the Ecollar is put on, while it’s on and after it’s taken off. Their noise has nothing to do with the stimulation since it’s not coupled with it. But if the dog starts vocalizing ONLY when the button is pressed, you may be too high. Keep a close eye on the dog and if this is happening, back off a bit. You can always go back up. But also be aware that if you’re using the continuous mode he’s vocalize continuously as long as the button is held down as described above.

When the dog shows you that he just perceives the stimulation level, you’ve found his working level. This may change slightly up or down. Some dogs become used to that level and it will need to be shifted up a touch. Some dogs become sensitized to that level and it will need to be turned down.

You may find that the continuous stimulation button is too intense for your dog, even just a slight movement from the “off” position of the rheostat. It’s rare but it does happen. If your dog reacts very strongly, usually shown by constant vocalization and rearing up, you may have to go to the nick button to work him. This can be done but the communication isn’t as effective. AND you’ll have to keep pressing the Nick button while others are just holding down the Continuous button.

Your dog’s working level may change from day to day. You should verify that it hasn’t changed by checking it every time you take him out to work him. Start out just a bit lower than where you normally work him. Wait till he’s not distracted and press the button. You might find that today, he’s working at that lower level. If he makes no sign that he feels it; you can go back to his usual level. If he’s ignoring you completely, you might need to go a touch higher.

Common Problems

One special problem that fairly common is working with puppies or older dogs that have never had any training.

Puppies are often difficult to deal with because they have a short attention span and EVERYTHING distracts them because EVERYTHING is new.

So their distraction level if you were to graph it would be a series of spikes and valleys. This makes it difficult to find their working level, because it bounces around all over the place.

Just be patient and wait for the pup to calm down. Give him time to investigate everything at the end of the Flexi. It may take ten minutes or so but sooner or later he'll plop down and that will allow you to work with him.

Older dogs without any training are used to having their own way. Realize that “no training” really IS training. The dog has been trained that he can do anything he wants. This dog may fight you for control.

With either dog or puppy, just be patient and it will come. Don’t expect progress to be a as fast as with a partially trained dog.

[Eyerman]

Thanks Lou,

The was quite nice of you to put that much time into a response.
I do agree with you and the collar worked and probably would continue to work if I had it. Afterall the most important thing is that my first Rottie doesn't get hurt or die, I am willing to do what ever it takes. Isn't this how the invisible fence works? I do agree with the others on trying to desensitize her to the fun of "going for the kill". I am going to work on it and I will let you all know what happens. It is going to take time for sure! All dogs require different angles of training. In my opinion! Thanks everyone!

Chuck Eyerman

[gam]

I wouldn't use the shock collar without trying different methods first. The shock collar should be the last option.

My female chases and lunges at cars. What I do and it seems to be working, not 100%, but I definately can see a change is to give her a correction before she does it. Basically I know what she's thinking and I'm telling her not to do it.

Another thing I do is I distract her...I take her mind off the car by working her. Sit, stay heel...turn her away from the car....something to distract her.

But the most important thing I do is praise her when a car goes by and she doesn't lunge...It's taking time but it is working.

[mark_sherry]

I have to stick to my guns on this one. The shock collar is not the answer at this time. I would re-read the posts preceding the shock collar post and rethink the issue. If you need a shock collar at this point, then it's obvious that your dog has missed or forgotten basic obedience as well, and that's something you should go back to. The shock collar is not a magic instrument that will solve the problem. Only work, time, and dedication will get you and your dog into a harmony that you want your relationship to be in.

[UnclLou]

Warning. this is a bit long.

I’ve never understood the attitude that all methods and tools should be tried before an Ecollar is used. To me it just shows that the person saying it hasn’t seen modern Ecollar use. That they’ve only see high stimulation level use where dogs are screaming in pain and running in panic.

This is improper use of the tool and if that’s all you’ve seen it’s understandable. But that’s NOT what I’m advocating. The way I use the tool is very gentle, more gentle in fact than most leash corrections, especially with a chain or pinch collar.

This problem, car chasing, needs to be stopped as soon as possible. Any method that delays results endangers the dog. It only takes one chase where the dog winds up under the car’s wheels for a fun chase to turn into a tragedy. Any method that doesn’t give 100% results should be discarded in favor of one that gives results in the shortest time possible.

People who praise their dogs for holding still when a car goes past, may unwittingly be reinforcing the chasing behavior. If you praise the dog who happens to be holding his ground because the car is going too fast or is just a tad too far away and the dog is thinking, “If that car was just going a little slower ( or was a bit closer) I’d be off in a flash!” You’ve just undermined your training by praising the dog for his “car chasing” thoughts.

Another view point I’ve never understood is that if you resort to an Ecollar you’ve somehow missed something in the dog’s training. This is just “toolism” at it’s worst. Again, comments like that usually come from people who don’t understand the tool.

Here’s a protocol I wrote to stop a dog from crittering (chasing game). It also works for any kind of aversion training such as dog to dog aggression or car chasing. For the latter problem substitute a moderately busy road for the critter.

++++++++++++++++++++++

CRITTERING AND DOG TO DOG AGGRESSION

The technique outlined below works well to stop a dog from chasing unwanted game, commonly known as “crittering” and for stopping dog to dog aggression. If you’re using it for the second purpose, just substitute a dog that your dog is aggressive towards for the prey animal. Where the references are made to “chasing game,” “prey,” or “prey animal,” just substitute the appropriate language for a dog to dog aggression problem

As with all the other techniques the stimulation level that’s used for this is the dog’s working level, that is, where he first perceives the stimulation.

Many people use a “leave-it” command when they see their dog start to chase game. The problem with this is that many chases begin out of sight of the handler. If the handler doesn’t see the chase start, he can’t give the dog the command to stop. By the time the handler realizes that his dog is chasing game, the dog may be out of earshot and won’t hear the leave-it command or the recall.

I use a form of behavior modification so that the dog doesn’t even start the chase. He sees the prey animal, realizes that chasing it is uncomfortable and just goes back to work. Often no one, except the dog, even knows that a prey animal was present.


Keep in mind that critttering is the main reason that Ecollars were invented, to stop dogs from chasing game. The old way of doing it was to wait for the dog to start the chase and then blast him off it with the highest level that the Ecollar had on its dial. (Early Ecollars didn’t have different levels. They weren’t adjustable. They just had one, very high, level.) But this often resulted in problems; the dogs wouldn’t go out anymore or they didn’t stop the chase. This method allows you to introduce the animal at a low level of distraction so that it’s easy to use low level stimulation to stop the problem.

There are three components to a chase of an animal. The first and least distracting is the scent of the animal. The dog only knows this if it has had a chase and makes the association between the chase and the sight of the animal. The second is the sight of the prey animal. The third is the chase itself.

If a dog has had a successful chase, that is, he has caught and killed a prey animal that he’s chased, it may be very difficult to break the dog of chasing that animal. I’d suggest that if your dog fits into this category you use the scent of the animal first in the behavior modification scheme. Since this is relatively rare, I’ll cover it last.

Some dogs will generalize from one prey animal to the next but some will need to be trained on the specific prey animal that they prefer. Some will generalize based on the size of the animal, for example, a dog proofed off a cat may generalize to skunks, squirrels and other game in that size range but will still chase deer or elk.

First let’s discuss the dog that has had a few chases but hasn’t as yet made a kill while doing so. If you’ve done the recall work properly, you can call him away from the animal if he sees it or even if he is actively chasing it.

But we want the dog to do the work himself, not in obedience to a command, for reasons stated earlier.

To do this you’ll need a cooperative prey animal. Some are easier to get than others. Elk and moose are obviously fairly difficult to get but there are ways around that. A cat works well and they are fairly easy to get. You can’t use the cat that lives with the dog, it has to be one that he’ll want to chase. (Unless your dog wants to chase that cat.) You can trap a wild one or borrow one from a neighbor. For a cat I recommend that you use a leash and a harness unless you know that he’ll walk well in just a collar.

The Materials

1. A six foot leash,
2. A flat buckle collar.
3. The prey animal and
4. A harness or collar and leash for that animal.

If you’re using a wild animal such as a deer, you’ll probably want to confine him somehow. Either with some kind of a rope and harness or in a small area so that he’ can’t run off. The idea is to keep the training so only the sight of the prey animal is involved. If he starts to run the dog will be too distracted for this method.

The Process

Imagine yourself on a football field. You’re going to need an assistant who will walk the cat (or other prey animal) back and forth on the “other” 0 - yard line. You and your dog, wearing a buckle collar and his Ecollar will go to the other 0 - yard line, 100 yards away. (Actually you can probably start on the 70 or 80 yard line but this will give extra insurance for those highly driven prey dogs.)

It’s important that your assistant keep the cat moving. A cat that’s holding still may not be of much interest to your dog. Keeping him moving at the same pace and at the same distance provides a constant distraction to your dog and makes the training go easier. If the cat stops and starts the distraction level changes and the training is harder.

You’re going to hook a 6' leash up to the D-ring on the buckle collar and lead the dog back and forth across the field at your own 0-yard line, 100 yards from the cat. Don’t give any commands just direct the dog gently with the leash. You don’t want the dog focussed on you and if you give him any commands that might happen. If the dog doesn’t see the cat by himself, have your assistant make some small noise, a whistle perhaps, to draw the dog’s attention to him and the cat. More than likely at this distance your dog will not show any interest in the cat. That’s perfectly all right.

You’re going to walk from sideline to sideline with the dog. Have your assistant make the noise a couple of times to draw the dog’s attention. Don’t have him call the dog’s name, just draw the dog’s attention.

If the dog shows no interest in the cat, next time you get to one of the sidelines, walk diagonally across the field; such that when you get to the other sideline you’re at your 10-yard line. That is, you’ve moved ten yards closer to the cat. Walk back and forth a couple of times at that distance. Have your assistant make a noise to draw the dog’s attention if he doesn’t notice the cat, just as before.

If you make two passes at the 90-yard distance and the dog doesn’t show any interest in the cat, close in another ten yards, just as before. Walk from the sideline diagonally across the field so that when you get to the other sideline, you wind up ten yards closer, at a distance of 80 yards from the cat.

At some point, as you get closer to the cat the dog will notice him. He’ll give the cat “the stare” that always precedes a chase. He’s sizing up the cat, wondering how much fun the chase will be, how fast he’ll have to run, how long the chase will last, and other doggie thoughts. When you see “the stare” you’re going to press the button on the Ecollar and step back, pulling the dog DIRECTLY away from the cat. You want to pull the dog directly away from the direction that he wants to go. You should be able to draw a straight line from the cat to the dog’s head that the leash should lie directly on. Generally you’re pulling the dog back to your own 0 yard line, but the angle may be off slightly. Make sure that you step back, keeping the distance between you and the dog a constant, rather than just pulling him away from the cat and closing the distance between the dog and you. If you just pull him towards you, you’re reinforcing the recall, not teaching him not to critter.

As soon as he takes a few steps away from the cat in response to the leash pressure and looks away from the cat, release the button.

Walk back and forth a few times at that same distance. If the dog gives the cat “the stare” again, repeat as above. It’s very important that you walk backwards to move the dog, rather than pull the dog towards you. Again, as he goes with the leash pressure and looks away from the cat, release the button.

Get closer to the cat as described above, by moving diagonally across the field. This turns up the distraction level very gently and slowly, allowing you to control it.

As you get closer the dog will again give the cat “the stare.” Repeat as often as is necessary.

The leash should always be slack for this until you’re actually pulling the dog away from the cat. You’ll probably have to coax the dog to get him to walk, but don’t give him any commands. This is between the dog and the cat; you have no part in this confrontation.

What you’re after is getting the dog to think that giving the cat “the stare” brings discomfort. If your timing and leash manipulation with this is good you’ll probably have to give the dog 5-7 stimulations as you close on the cat. With most dogs I’ve been able to get them to walk within 2' – 3' of the cat on the first time doing this. Some dogs have been able to step over the cat and ignore him after one session of this.

With some dogs it may take several sessions to get him to see the cat, and then ignore him for the rest of the session, without it taking any more stimulations to get this.

A lot of how successful this is depends on the dog’s history in chasing prey animals. If he’s had success it just takes more repetitions. It WILL work.

If anyone likes I can provide numerous letters from people who have done it.

(C) Copyright 2002 Lou Castle

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

[Eyerman]

Thank you Lou for the time you took and the advice. The trainer and I are working on the problem in a very similar manner. Thanks!

Chuck

[mark_sherry]

Chuck,

I'm not a positive-reinforcement only trainer, nor am I solely confined to negative association. Lou makes some valid points about the e-collar if used in the method that he is talking about. To that degree, it is merely another tool of the trade. I do disagree with him slightly about the positive reinforcement of praising your dog when it doesn't lunge after a car, but if done to excess, it can become a negative thing, and I think that's what Lou's referring to. When it boils down to it, you really have to take the best of both worlds and try to incorporate them into a system that works for you and the dog. More than likely, it won't be a system that will only work with an e-collar, and it won't be a system that won't work with only positive reinforcement. Using your head and both wisely, you'll get through it. I'm a bit old fashioned when it comes down to e-collars, and I just don't like the one-on-one relationship that they take away from the dog and handler. With a leash and prong collar, for example, you're always the one associated with the reinforcement, and the dog comes to respect that and you at the same time. I just don't see that happening with an e-collar. I just don't see dogs making that connection.

[UnclLou]

Thanks for the kind words Mark. I’m not a “one–way” trainer either. I use whatever tool works best for the given dog at the given moment.

I think that in this form of training, aversion to car chasing it works best if no command is given. This means that the dog does all the work. If it’s put on command then the handler must be present and must give the command. If the dog gets out or the handler gets busy and doesn’t see the chase start, he can’t give the command. Therefore the car chasing will probably occur. With my method the dog himself is doing the work. He thinks the correction came from his aggressive, chasing behavior towards the car. The chase becomes uncomfortable so he stops.

This is kinda hard for some to accept so let me toss in a few comments from those who have tried it with animal chasing and dogs that behave aggressively.

Here’s one from Karen, a trainer in MI. “While out training or searching my GSD sometimes took off after deer, for the most part I was not very successful in turning her around once she took flight. I would say 99% of the time I have her undivided attention and have a solid recall, drop, send out etc. What I wanted was 100% reliability and now I have it . . . I have to say it has been amazing. I haven't had to use the e collar very often . . . for everyday obedience but when I am out searching or perhaps a cat running across our path it has made my dog 100% reliable.”

Karen worked for about one hour and got her dog to within six feet of a cat. Before the dog would start a chase at 75 yards.

And here’s my favorite. Laura Rathe is a very experienced SAR worker in Northern California. She’s trained two dogs to an operational level. She was a Total Positive Trainer and then she came across Charley. It’s interesting to note that Laura and I never had any “face time.” I sent her some articles (the one above) and spoke to her on the phone a few times.

Laura wrote, “I have a very nice SAR dog.....she is my 3rd operational dog.......a lab.... I was having terrible trouble with her crittering and her recall....she came if she felt like it. Could NOT call her off critters. I really hated to wash this dog as she had so much drive and when she wasn't crittering, she worked well. I was at the end of my rope...could no longer even work a short (20 min) wilderness problem as she was now taking off for 10 minutes at a time....I had NO idea where she was.

“I called Lou at home to get some advice on the e collar....now.....I am NOT a fan of working a SAR dog in a collar...goes against my grain. Lou gave me about 1.5 hours of his time and walked me through the process of using the collar.....I had never used one in the past....never needed to with either of my other dogs nor any of the dogs I've helped to train. By the way....I taped the phone call with Lou's permission.

“I'm very pleased to report that not only does my pup have a terrific recall....she'll stop on a dime and return to me....she also has no interest in crittering....I had the pleasure of scaring up a deer and watched my dog pay absolutely no attention to it...no staring, no chasing, no sniffing.... People who knew my dog before are absolutely amazed at the change in her......She recently certified in HRD and last week took her 40 acre "pre test"....she is 14 months old. The e collar in no way ruined her enthusiam or drive. I no longer have to use the collar....it was a great TRAINING aid for me... Would I do it again??? In a heartbeat......no, it's not the only way to train...I've trained many different ways with different dogs. This one just needed a "different" way.”

With training, such as OB, where a command is given the dog quickly makes the connnection between the command and the reinforcement.

That connection usually happens by the time the dog has learned the second behavior, usually the sit. That only takes a few days. With conventional methods, the leash and collar the connection is made immediately. With Ecollars it takes two or three days longer.

[mark_sherry]

Lou,

I see your point and can respect your method of approach. If you have a philosophy and back it with sound training, and it works, then I see no reason why you shouldn't move forward with it. Because of what I'm doing with my dogs, I don't have a desire to take the chase instinct away, so I'm not faced with that motivation. Perhaps under different circumstances, I would consider alternative methods of training.

Mark

[UnclLou]

Just to clarify one small point. The “chase instinct” isn’t removed. Only the desire to chase cars, in this case. In the case where the technique is used to stop cat chasing, only the desire to chase cats is removed. I had one SAR dog that generalized to ALL other animals and stopped chasing them even though he had only been trained not to chase cats. But that’s very rare, as I said, only ONE dog.

Some dogs will generalize to other animals of the same size, such as skunks, squirrels, moles, etc. Those dogs will still need to be trained on larger animals such as deer and elk. But don’t count on the generalization. Some, probably most, dogs need to be worked on each and every animal that you want then to stop chasing.

Many if not most of the SAR dogs work to get a toy. I wouldn’t want to decrease their drive to chase that toy. The training is pretty specific.

So happy that this conversation has stayed polite and civil. So often when the subject of Ecollars comes up, people get a little nutty.

[mark_sherry]

Lou,

Thanks for clarifying. Now you'e peaked my curiosity as to how that works -- I mean stopping animal-specific crittering. And nah, I always try to stay civil. Life's too short to get hot-headed. I'm always open to learning something new as long as the other people are civil as well. You make a very professional presentation, and I respect that.

Mark

[UnclLou]

Mark wrote: Now you'e peaked my curiosity as to how that works -- I mean stopping animal-specific crittering.

YAY. I love it when that happens. LOL. Mark I’m sure that you’ve read the piece I wrote on crittering and dog to dog aggression. In this thread I suggested that it be used to stop car chasing as well. I think that the secret lies in the use of low level stimulation.

Using high level stimulation leads to very fast learning. In fact the scientists tell us that you can get learning in one repetition. But there are several problems with this. One is that if the dog makes the wrong association, for example, instead of looking at the cat, he’s looking at a butterfly and thoughts of that animal are filling his brain, when he gets hit with the highest level of stimulation the Ecollar he’ll think that the butterfly REALLY hurt him from several feet away. Every time for the rest of his life, that he sees a butterfly he’ll run. And since no other butterflies will ever hurt him, he’ll believe that running from butterflies keeps him safe.

But if this same scenario was repeated but this time with low level stimulation the false association may be formed but in a few seconds when it happens when the dog is focused on the cat, he’ll realize that it wasn’t the butterfly that cause the discomfort (rather than the extreme pain of a high level stimulation). After 5–10 repetitions of this he’ll come to realize that the “hard look” that always precedes a chase, bring discomfort. He thinks that the discomfort came from HIS action of looking at the cat with a chase in mind. He’ll also learn that turning his head away from that cat, brings comfort. Once a dog’s head is turned away from something he can’t possibly chase it. Even if he’s thinking of it he learns that turning his head away, bring comfort.

Using this technique people have stopped cat chasing entirely, some in only a couple of lessons. About two months ago I worked with a very high drive dog that had caught and killed two cats. That’s a lot of success for the dog so I didn’t expect much success with the training. This dog saw the cat and got charged up from over 100 yards away. At the end of about a 30–45 minute session he was walking within six feet of the cat and ignoring him. A few minutes later he was chasing his tennis ball and chasing it HARD. There was no loss of the drive to chase the ball, but he’d lost quite a bit of interest in cats. That handler has a cat at home that was constantly in danger. Now the dog ignores the cat.

Interestingly he may still chase other cats because he may not generalize to them, but he’s lost all interest in his own cat. A few more sessions with different cats will have him convinced that all cats are to be ignored.

I used this technique with a dog that I rescued. He thought it was his job to kill all other dogs and had put a few into the vet’s office. I had two dogs at home at the time. He got to the point where he ignored the other dogs. I got such reliability that I’d leave all three dogs home alone, together. He never got to the point that he played with them, he’d only play with me, but he tolerated them completely. His hackles never even came up when the training was complete.

In talking about low level stimulation v. high level stimulation I use the analogy of standing on a ladder hammering in a nail. You lose concentration for a second and hit your thumb a good shot with the hammer. People have died from this. They peel backwards off the ladder, fall and hit their heads. They forget completely that they have to hold on to the ladder. They forget completely that they have to maintain their balance. All they can think of . . . all that fills their world is the PAIN that they’re feeling. They can’t think anymore. This is like a dog is that is being blasted off a deer or (for a biting dog) off a bite. He can’t think anymore. His entire world is pain.

Now consider the same hammering in the nail on the ladder situation. Only this time you don’t whack your thumb, you just graze it, causing a tiny bit of pain. This time you don’t lose your balance. You don’t peel backwards off the ladder. You don’t hit your head and die. Instead you just think, “WOW! That was close. That REALLY could have hurt if I’d been only ¼" to the left.” My point is that you’re THINKING! You haven’t blocked out the entire world because of the pain.

This is the real advantage of low level stimulation. It’s merely uncomfortable. It’s doesn’t cause pain that blocks out all thought.

For this reason it allows for better and clearer communication with the dog. When using high levels of stimulation you often have to wait for it to stop before the dog is capable of performing.

Learning isn’t blocked.

As often happens I’m rambling a bit. I hope this answers your question.

[mark_sherry]

Again, you give a good response to my question. I can see what you refer to when you speak of high level versus low level stimulation. I think we see the same results when we give a hard leash correction versus a milder leash correction, so your theory is correct in that regard. I don't have experience with this new type of e-collar and have only a mild experience with the old type. I knew someone who "abused" their dog with the old type of collar, and that memory has remained with me for a long time. That poor dog got zapped for everything and it would whelp like nothing else. I wanted to put the collar on this guy and zap him for a day everytime he did something stupid. Anyway, thanks for the information. It's been informative.

Mark