History of the Rottie

[mark_sherry]

Nancy and Trish,

Both of your responses support quite nicely the argument that the Romans possessed a certain dog quite like our modern Rottweiler. Trish, you are quite right -- all hail Caesar and his fresh meat policy! And quite possibly the Caesar who perfected this was not Augustus, but Marcus Aurelius, the last great Caesar whose armies swept through Germany in the final push of the Empire, well after the initial 74 A.D. campaign.

Nancy, your research has provided absolutely great insight into the development of the mastiff. To begin with, the Rottweiler probably does descend from the mastiff; however, it may, as I suppose it does, precede Rome. If I am correct about the articles that I've read, it seems that the Asian and Eastern mastiffs were of the age of Greece and of the age of Egypt and Mesopotamia. Swift onslaughts by charging hords of the Huns into Europe was sure to bring these dogs with them, and that may explain how the mastiff ended up in the British Isles when the Romans found them hundreds of years later.

The Romans were very much a symbolic and status-oriented people, and it is of no doubt that they bred their dogs to match their ideal for what a dog should be. I see the Rottweiler meeting their criteria very well. Just like Trish said, they are strong and compact, and they were rugged and fierce when asked to be. They defended their owners and fought for their masters. They were sturdy dogs with a high pain threshold and jaws of steel. The Romans probably adored this in their dogs and no doubt, unfortunately, cheered them on in the colleseum in battle vs. man and beast and used them in war vs. their enemies.

[mark_sherry]

Nancy,

Upon re-reading the article (which I found to be very detailed), I notice that the author left out an explanation as to the black guard dog the Romans developed out of their original mastiff imports. This "early Roman" dog split from the white shepherding guard dog and became the heavy black guard dog. This (the black dog) is the one, by the way, that they took with them with their army and the one that fought in the colleseums.

[ROTTSVILLE]

I agree with many of the good points made.

Little doubt that the romans used dogs for various reasons.

But getting things into perspective,

These dogs they used are so distantly related, that many of us are probably closer related to the Romans !

Any connection is NEGLIGIABLE.

They would have used what ever dogs proved their worth.

Sticking to no ridgid type.

From that time until now, some 2000 years, all sorts of dogs would have been thrown into the "mixer" !
Thus the breed has constantly changed, probably unrecognisably.
As Judi mentioned a portrait of a dog which apart from being black did not look like a rotty.

I have seen many pictures of various breeds, English and bullmastiffs, English bulldogs, Bullterriers , etc,
from little over a hundred years ago, and many of them do not resemble todays dogs at all, AND CERTAINLY NOT IN TEMPERAMENT.
( EG. in the 1800's the bullmastiff was bred to actually kill poachers)

If you read many breeds books, many claim to have roman connections.
But the romans didnt have a kennel club, did they ???
They bred with any goood dog they found on the way, wild dogs included probably !

Then when the Romans departed, the dogs werent neccesarily all selectively bred.

And a Utility dog would have several "strains".

Each requiring different individual qualities.
Thus different types of Rott may have existed !

Its nice to think of Romans marching along with legions of Rotts that look just like mine and yours,
But truth is they are so distantly connected, that many other breeds may be just as well connected.
And even look more similar.
As they probably didnt even have a unified appearance.

A dogs reproduction cycle is so short that the breed can unrecognisably change so quickly, in appearance and performance.

In the absence of a substancia amount of proof, not all but much of the BREED history is guess work.

When the facts are geniunely discovered, the truth is often not quite so exciting.

The Romans have many nostalgic stories attached to them,
In Britain, there was Queen Boudica, who supposedly massacred Roman legion after legion.
In her Chariot with spikes etc
But much of the hype has recently been proved to be MYTH.

The motto : dont believe the hype!

[mark_sherry]

Rottsville,

You bring up some very interesting points, and certainly some that must be taken into consideration. However, if you haven't, please read this thread from the beginning. Hype is part of the culture of the Rott that we are looking for. Oral history, mythology, etc., are all part of the known or unknown which make up our modern-day breed.

While you are correct about the fact that the breed could have changed, there is little evidence to support that the Romans did not have a selective breeding program in place. In fact, if they did not have a selective breeding program in place, it would have gone very much against their way of life and mentality. The Romans were interested in building a world empire, and in every facet of that empire, they wanted to make everything Roman. Roman writing do prove that there were two breeds of dogs in Rome at the B.C./A.D. juncture -- one white one for herding and one black one for guarding. It is possible that both of these dogs went with them on their campaigns; however, we do know that the black dog was with them in the A.D. 74 campaign that ended in Germany.

There is little refutation in the fact that dog's change over a period of time, both in appearance and in temperament. However, I believe that the Romans were interested in maintaining the perfect "Roman" dog, as it fitted with their natural tendancy to Romanize everything. After the fall of Rome, the Germans, left with the dogs, were left with a hard working dog that they, too, wanted to keep pure because of its benefit to them. Possibly, the weakest link in the Rottie puzzle was the turn of the 20th century when the breed was almost extinct.

[RottyMommy]

Mark-Sherry

My father's hobby is military history and, while he is really most interested in French/Napoleanic (sp?) period, he does know alot about the Roman (and pre-Roman) era. He may have come across a reference or two in his reading or at the very least may know of a direction to point you in.

Perhaps if you approach the question of Rottweiler in Military history from a Military perspective and not a dog perspecitve you may find a tidbit or two. I imagine it may involve a little more sifting, but I bet you would come up with some gems for your effort.

I will put him the job....he's a good grandpa and will gladly research a little for his grandpup. ;)

[KRISSIE]

Mark, Do you feel that the Rottweiler was perhaps an ancient mastiff breed in Rome that was never officially documented by the Romans? Wouldn't that be an interesting theory to think that our modern day Rottweilers could be the closest link to the true ancient Mastiff.

When I was reading the history of the Mastiff they mention tracing other breed bloodlines to that of the mastiff, they mentioned the chow-chow and the pug ( which was some sort of dwarf mastiff). Where do they come up with this, what are they baseing this info on. If that is the case then why can't they trace the rottweiler's bloodline as well?

Any science majors here I have a question regarding DNA??

[ROTTSVILLE]

Mark, i can see your point,

But the facts are that these dogs were not
"rottweilers" as you or i know them today.

You say that there were two breeds of dogs, one black one white ???

However if i was a Roman dog breeder and i found a couple of white dogs wandering around that had all the hallmarks of good workers, i'd be a fool not use them to breed.

I disagree with your interpretation, regarding the point that there were two breeds, one white, one black.

I personally find this concept too limiting .

This implies uniformity.

Yes maybe there were black dogs, and white dogs.
But i bet there were also dogs that were black and white, brown,fawn, every shade .
And whatever suited, went into the pot.

Think about it if someone said to you.
Make the best dogs possible for schutzhund and protection work.
Dont worry about looks, colour or breeds or dogs being registered, or origins or anything.

Your dog might have a bit of rott in it, probably quite a bit a begian malinois, maybe a dash of giant schauser, some gsd, Bulldog, pitbull, fila, dogge argentina, tosa,Greyhound, Numerous MONGRELs, and the Unknown etc,etc,.To name but a few.
And maybe even a touch of wolf !!!!!Or wild hunting dog.

Your only remit, is to get the best functioning working dog you can.

Do this for a couple of thousand years or so,
The breed will evolve, transform and change many hundreds of times
Lets give your special breed a name, say "marko-mut".
When you have the finished article
in the year stardate 4000. (give or take a light year).

For the last 100 years or so, then make a breed standard.

At any stretch of the imagination can you really say that the finished end product of "MARCO-MUT" is that similar to it's origins.



Infront of me i have the pegigree of a famous line of bullmastiffs, which way back in its pegigree, has clearly stated dogs of unknown breed. And various cross breeds.
And again, these dogs only resemblance with todays dogs are in the NAME only.

I dont know much about its origins,
but does anyone know where i can get one of those "MARCO-MUT's".

I reckon i can guess exactly what it would look like!

A cross between SCOOBY DOO and the 3 headed dog from the harry potter film !!!!!!!!!!!!

[Roscoe's dad]

This is from the article "From Gladiator to Survivor" by D. Caroline Coile Ph.D
"around 50 BC, thousands of Roman troops trekked northward over the Alps in search of new holding. The only way to feed so many soldiers was to bring the food supply "on the hoof". They controlled that many cattle with intelegent hardy couragious dogs.
fortunately they had the right breed for the job-the Mollossian".
Further on she writes that this breed probably desended from the Tiebtan Mastiff. From an article in Popular dogs series Rottweilers.

Some other dates in Rott history are as follows
1905 only one Rottweiler remaining in the town of Rottweil
1924 The ADRK publishes the first Rottweiler standard
1927 Finland registers its first Rottweiler
1950 AKC registers 67 new Rottweilers
1960 77 new Rottweilers
2000 The Rottweiler drops out of the top 10 falling to 11th place

[Nancy Estes]

Personally I doubt that any ancient Mastiff-type dogs, Roman or otherwise, much resembled the modern-day Rottweiler. There are very few breeds that have a documented history showing a continuous type over centuries of time. The ones that do come to mind are the sight hounds, such as the Pharoah Hound. If you look at early documentation / photographs of Rottweilers in Germany they are recognizable as Rottweilers but are pretty far removed from the current type. Different head type, longer legs, less body, etc. Also there was a wide range of color. These early Rottweilers were then selectively bred and evolved into the type we know today.

To quote Andrew Brace's The Ultimate Rottweiler -

Chapter One: HISTORY OF THE ROTTWEILER (Larry Elsden):

"While it may be an attractive thought that the Rottweiler has a long and ancient history, with stories of the Roman Legions tramping through the Alpine passes accompanied by large black-and-tan dogs who fell out from the line of march in the Black Forest area, the truth is that we owe the Rottweiler to Germany and to the German breeders operaing at a much later date than Roman times." (page 8)

"However, the Rottweiler certainly has one link back to the Romans and that is in its name. . . . The region where Rottweil is situated was conquered by the Romans in 74AD who then made it an important trading and administrative centre. Rome lost control of the area about 260AD. The old Roman name of Arae Flaviae disappeared to be replaced by the name Rote Will, literally Red Villa after the red bricks and tiles used in its buildings. The name then evolved into Rottweil." (page 8)

"While the ability of the Rottweiler as a herding or droving dog cannot be denied, it is an interesting fact that both physically and mentally it is a very different type to the general concept of a herding breed. Hans Korn, generally considered to be one of the great experts on the breed, wrote in 1939 that the Rottweiler showed few of the characteristics of other cattle dogs and that it appeared to be far closer to the broad-mouthed Mastiff-type dogs used as fighting dogs and as guards. Korn was of the opinion that the original cattle dog, developed over the centuries, was modified by the introduction of a broad-mouthed breed, probably the Bullenbeiser, the ancestor of the boxer." (page 9)

"There is really little benefit to be gained in speculation as to the original ancestors of the Rottweiler. A major factor is the relatively poor communications in the region. High in the mountain valleys each locality developed the dog that suited their needs. Any dog, including the rare animal from outside the immediate area that offered any chance of iimprovement, would be used to a considerable extent and as a result type tended to become fixed. This inaccesible and mountainous corner of Europe produced a disproportionately large number of the breeds that we know today, almost all of them multi-purpose, guarding and herding breeds." (page 9)

Nancy

[Roscoe's dad]

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/rottweil.html

[Roscoe's dad]

Here is another opinion on where the rottweiler originated.

http://www.geocities.com/allrottweil...s/history.html

[Judi W]

Come on guys, one Rottweiler in the village of Rottweil in Germany doesn't mean one Rottweiler in the world!!!! Hello????

[Nancy Estes]

Originally posted by Judi W
Come on guys, one Rottweiler in the village of Rottweil in Germany doesn't mean one Rottweiler in the world!!!! Hello????

I think this comes from at least one of the older books on the Rottweiler but I can't find all of mine so can't verify this. As I remember it was something to the effect that after WW II there was only one bitch in Rottweil. Perhaps this has mutated to *only one Rottweiler in the world*. Other sources (Anna Katherine Nicholas) state that the Rottweiler was used during the War, which would imply that there were others in Germany, though not, perhaps, in Rottweil itself.

Nancy

[ROTTSVILLE]

Originally posted by Nancy Estes
Personally I doubt that any ancient Mastiff-type dogs, Roman or otherwise, much resembled the modern-day Rottweiler. There are very few breeds that have a documented history showing a continuous type over centuries of time. The ones that do come to mind are the sight hounds, such as the Pharoah Hound. If you look at early documentation / photographs of Rottweilers in Germany they are recognizable as Rottweilers but are pretty far removed from the current type. Different head type, longer legs, less body, etc. Also there was a wide range of color. These early Rottweilers were then selectively bred and evolved into the type we know today.

To quote Andrew Brace's The Ultimate Rottweiler -

Chapter One: HISTORY OF THE ROTTWEILER (Larry Elsden):

"While it may be an attractive thought that the Rottweiler has a long and ancient history, with stories of the Roman Legions tramping through the Alpine passes accompanied by large black-and-tan dogs who fell out from the line of march in the Black Forest area, the truth is that we owe the Rottweiler to Germany and to the German breeders operaing at a much later date than Roman times." (page 8)

"However, the Rottweiler certainly has one link back to the Romans and that is in its name. . . . The region where Rottweil is situated was conquered by the Romans in 74AD who then made it an important trading and administrative centre. Rome lost control of the area about 260AD. The old Roman name of Arae Flaviae disappeared to be replaced by the name Rote Will, literally Red Villa after the red bricks and tiles used in its buildings. The name then evolved into Rottweil." (page 8)

"While the ability of the Rottweiler as a herding or droving dog cannot be denied, it is an interesting fact that both physically and mentally it is a very different type to the general concept of a herding breed. Hans Korn, generally considered to be one of the great experts on the breed, wrote in 1939 that the Rottweiler showed few of the characteristics of other cattle dogs and that it appeared to be far closer to the broad-mouthed Mastiff-type dogs used as fighting dogs and as guards. Korn was of the opinion that the original cattle dog, developed over the centuries, was modified by the introduction of a broad-mouthed breed, probably the Bullenbeiser, the ancestor of the boxer." (page 9)

"There is really little benefit to be gained in speculation as to the original ancestors of the Rottweiler. A major factor is the relatively poor communications in the region. High in the mountain valleys each locality developed the dog that suited their needs. Any dog, including the rare animal from outside the immediate area that offered any chance of iimprovement, would be used to a considerable extent and as a result type tended to become fixed. This inaccesible and mountainous corner of Europe produced a disproportionately large number of the breeds that we know today, almost all of them multi-purpose, guarding and herding breeds." (page 9)



Nancy, excellent post,
someone who lives in the real world.

Fact not Fantasy.



Nancy

[Nancy Estes]

Originally posted by babydungeon
can't you guys at least give mark credit for trying to learn about our breed? i hate to see so much negativity within this wonderful forum. the battle of who's right and who's wrong just won't ever end.

I didn't see that much negativity; just some disagreements. Nothing as bad as I've seen in other threads ;). The bottom line is that there is no proof whatsoever of the Rottweiler's true origins. It's sheer speculation, based on whatever historical evidence happens to exist (not much). Or educated guesses perhaps. This is true of the history of the origins of almost all purebred dogs. Very few of them exist in the form we find today for hundreds, much less thousands, of years.

Nancy