Tail Docking

[mark_sherry]

Brita's tail isn't docked, and I really like that. I'm not sure that I ever want a Rottie with a docked tail, but at the same time, I don't have a problem with docking since it seems like it's safe when done by a qualified person or vet. Has tail docking been banned 100% in Germany, or is it an option? Is there a movement to ban docking in the U.S.?

[Bruce Lanthier]

It is banned in Germany. I don't know about the US. I sure that it will be banned all over eventually since there really isn't a reason for it anymore. I like the docked look but, tail or no, I love rottweilers and will have them as long as I am able.

[mark_sherry]

Bruce,

Thank you for your answer. I thought I had heard it was officially banned in Germany, but everytime I go to a German breeder's page, I continue to see pictures of docked Rotties. Must be old pics.

I like both looks, and I am partial to both for historical reasons. I'm not sure when the Germans began docking the tails, but I read somewhere that the practice began somewhere in the 17th-18th century when they were being used more and more for pulling wagons and such. My reading suggests that they were guarding cattle more than herding cattle before that, especially the Roman descendants, so their tails, as I would just assume, were probably not docked.

Either way, I agree with you -- a Rottie is a Rottie, and I love them either way.

Mark

[godfreyc]

Just an opinion here not the start of a great debate. I think it would be much more difficult to ban docking in the US. I can see something passing that bans the docking of a tail after 4 days except in a medical emergency or something like that, but there would be an awful lot of class action lawsuits if they tried to keep people from doing early responsible tail docking.

[Judi W]

Regarding the photos. I believe that most prefer the look of the docked tail. You will often find that the dog is turned, or the tail is placed down between the legs so it doesn't show much if at all in the photos. Pause for thought huh?

[mark_sherry]

I really don't know what the opinion is in Germany right now about it. I guess it must be pretty much still a heated debate, but somehow the ban was passed. But what about the imports? Are they coming in with docked tails? I here that a lot of ScH people and breeders are importing German stock, so I wander what they're doing to get the docked tails. Are they docking them once they come to the U.S.? If so, I think that's wrong because the dogs are obvioiusly too old for it then.

[godfreyc]

Once the first 5 days of life are past it's IMHO not a docking but an amputation of a limb. Now I'll make a confession, when I was a teenager I got a mixed puppy gsd/rottie my mother probably being as ill informed as me let me "dock" it's tail. Seeing how painful it was and knowing what I know now I would never do it to an animal for cosmetic reasons after the first 5 days. Before that IMHO it's up to the breeder. If their bringing in dogs and doing this at that point I don't think it's ok. The question becomes, can I tell someone else what's ok?

[mark_sherry]

If it's established that the neuro-muscular system is fully developed and the procedure (or amputation as you put it very well) is done at a later age without anesthesia by anyone other than a vet, I think you can tell them it's not OK. At that point, I believe it borders on abuse and needles suffering. However, let me say, that I am not saying that this is what is going on with dogs that are being imported. I don't know. I'm just saying that anyone who docks a tail after the nerves are fully developed without anesthesia (what is it? 4-6 days), should have someone take a look at them for animal abuse.

[mark_sherry]

godfreyc . . . don't get me wrong. That's in no way a condemnatoin of what you did as a teenager. You didn't know any better. I'm referring to people who do know better -- those importing undocked dogs from Germany.

[baci]

But isn't it true that a dog's wagging tail is like a handshake to another dog? A dog trainer told me one of the reasons rotts are perceived as vicious is that with the tail docked, a rottie has no way to signal friendliness to another dog. The other dog may think the tail is between the legs, take that for submission, try to dominate, and provoke an aggressive response from the rott.

[Judi W]

That would assume that dogs speak primarily with one part of their body which is not correct. It might be true that some humans only look to see if there is a wagging tail, but dogs have much broader body language than that. (all the way right down to their toes) and they read and speak dog very well indeed.
In fact, for those who think a wagging tail is always friendly and benign, that too is incorrect. Many a dog with a happily wagging tail has just as happily taken a bite.

[Bruce Lanthier]

Wouldn't all docked breeds be affected the same, for the most part. I know some aren't docked as short as a rott but there still isn't much too see. The tail is a signaling device, no doubt, but there are a lot more signals than just the tail. Body posture, ear position, legs stiffness, body placement, etc. Like I said, I prefer the look and I don't think it is necessarily "bad", but it is hard to argue for any tail docking for what ever reason.

[mark_sherry]

According to the American Veterinarians Association, I believe, it would apply to all docked breeds. I believe this is the group that's lobbying to put an end to docking tails. If not, please correct me if I'm wrong.

I agree with Bruce and Judy in regards to doggie language. There are many forms of communication that they have between one another. Take for instance, the drop down on the front paws -- it means, "I want to play."

There is one argument for docking tails that I haven't seen made here, and I'd like to run it by you all to see what you think. I've heard that, if Rotties tails are not docked, it will change the physical appearance of the breed over the course of the next few decades. Their backs will grow longer, and their chests will become narrower, or something like that. The point of that argument is that a new standard will have to be written for the breed. Any thoughts?

[Judi W]

It is not the "presence" of a tail that is expected to change the general conformation over time. It is the selection for specific tail placement and carriage which is expected to cause change. With a very explicit description of the tail included in a standard, then breeding selection is going to of necessity start selecting for that attribute. Any time a specific attribute is chosen for selection, then you will see changes all round. Since the tail carriage has never been selected previously, some dogs will be selected against because of this and some for. Slope to the croup will probably be one of the first things that will be seen to change over the next 3 or so generations.

[mark_sherry]

Judi,

You're exactly right! You jarred my memory! I couldn't remember exactly what it was that was going to force changes. Yes, it would just add one more thing to the genetic "pot." Thanks.

Mark