Opinions wanted!!

[Carol Burke]

I would like opinions on the following scenerio:

A breeder has a very nice dog who is shown to it's championship before two years of age. The dog is x-rayed at two and does not pass OFA. The breeder continues showing the dog winning Best of Breeds and Group placements.

Do you feel this is an ethical thing to do?

I feel since the confirmation ring is supposed to be for breeding animals and because of the OFA failure this dog cannot be bred it is unfair to compete against dogs who have passed OFA and take wins away from these dogs.

How about if the dog does not finish before two and after being x-rayed and failing OFA is continued to be shown until it finishes it's championship, taking points from dogs that are OFA clear?

[JonandMichelle]

I agree with you. I think it is unfair. I thought that IF the dog was shown to fail an OFA they no longer could show in the ring?

Was I misinformed?

[lblax]

actually the dog should be spayed so as a breeding cannot occur. which woiuld disqualify it from showing although i may be wrong but i believe there is a class for spayed and nuetered dogs

[Judi W]

OFA is a requirement for ethical breeding. It has no effect on elgibility for showing. Whether it is ethical or not I believe is in the eye of the beholder. Some people love showing and are proud of their dog whether it will actually have a breeding career or not. If the dog is handsome enough to win and the owner wishes to spend the money enjoying the sport, that is their option. If I'm the reserve to this dog for points, I'd probably be a bit grumpy, but not accuse the owner of being unethical. It would only be unethical to the rules of the sport if the dog were surgically altered in which case if that is known, a complaint can be filed.

What about people who do not OFA at all and do not belong to any code clubs? They are not banned from showing their dogs. We don't refer people to them for puppies or stud service, but they are free to enter and compete. I suspect there are many dogs being shown that you do not know the status of their hips, elbows, hearts, etc and there is no hue and cry about them being out. Many dogs are finished before they are old enough for OFA and I am sure that they do not all pass. A frugal owner doesn't spend a lot of money showing a dog that is unsound, however, some people are very proud of their dog whether it is ever going to be bred or not and simply love taking it out.

I dislike being beaten by butt ugly dogs as well or dogs that while they might even be OFA'd cannot move across the ring decently, but that happens also and is not unethical either.

[frontierrots]

Nope not unethical at all.

Showing is a sport where you get the OPINION of the judge that day. Some judges give good and accurate assessments and others? Well lets just say I'm not sure when the last time they read the breed standard was

As a matter of fact I am a strong proponant in the establishment of a separate class for altered dogs as well. Same breed standard- minus the repro organs of course. Cats have altered Ch and intact Chs, horses also have intact and altered Chs (altered and intact NEVER compete against each other)

IF we had altered classes and Chs then no I would not agree with a HD+, SAS+ etc dog being shown in the regular classes and competing against breeding animals. But as it stands there is nothing wrong or unethical abut it at all

[Judi W]

ASCA (The Australian Club of America) has established an altered class and the exhibitors love it. I've had some very nice dogs and bitches show there as well.

[rottcrazed]

Then again, lets just say that this dog has the possibility of being in the top 20 or top 10 for the year if he/she is just campaigned a little longer. Personally, if it was my dog, I would want to get the ribbons and the points and try to do the best I could with the dog while I can. At the end of the campaign, I would have the dog fixed.

That's my opinion!

Kristi

[TrishB]

I also don't believe it to be unethical. Simply put - that dog was the superior dog to that judge of that day. If he beat your dog so be it. Personally I would see it as my dog losing to the better dog (conformation wise), not that a dog that isn't going to be bred stole my points.

The only point that would be unethical would be if they bred him.

I would have to say that if my dog could win conformation classes but did not pass any tests - I would still show until they got their championship. Why? Why not? I would be disappointed in the test results, but if I wasn't going to breed the dog - it shouldn't matter anyway.

I haven't shown dogs before (only horses), but I hope to one day. ;) I find it sad that Canada and the US don't have altered classes. I think that Conformation classes are just another way to keep people interested in dogs, good breeding and breed encouragement. Why not allow people with good looking altered dogs to show them? I think anything that encourages people to stay involved with their dog and their breed is a good thing! :D

This person has a nice dog, is involved in the breed and has gone through responsible testing for possible breeding. As long as the dog isn't going to be bred, I don't mind an owner still being involved with their dogs, their breed and encouragement of responsible breeding.

I've known of others that would have bred him anyway. :(

[Carol Burke]

I agree, there should be classes for neutered dogs/bitches. But, my point is, dog shows are supposed to be to pick the best breeding animals and if a dog cannot be bred for health reasons I do not think it should be shown. If someone shows a healthy animal that is capable of breeding and then decides for one reason or another not to breed thats one thing, but to know up front this dog cannot be bred I think is unfair to the purpose of dog shows.

[frontierrots]

Carol
Dog shows have not been a good way for brood stock evaluation in quite a long time.

It is a sport plain and simple. There is too much politics and uncaring/unknowledgeable judges out there for winning to actually determine if a dog should or should not be bred.

IF you enjoy showing and have the $$ to do a good deal of it then go to town. But never think of it as a proving ground for breeding dogs. It just ain't so- at least not now a days :(

If you take showing so seriously that the showing of a dog that is not going to be bred because of a failed health certifiction etc bothers you to this extent then you are getting a tad too competitive. Winning is reat but losing isn't the end of the world.

It is what your dog really is in looks, brains, pedigree, temperament and health that matters not what some judge who does not even know what the breed standard really says thinks of your dog. (a couple examples: a friend was told my a judge that penciling on the feet was a serious fault and was why her dog placed second. A second friend was told that her 23" bitch was way undersized and a third was told her huge boned, big headed, fit, in shape muscles bulging dog had too much muscle and not enough "substance")

[TrishB]

Originally posted by Carol Burke
I agree, there should be classes for neutered dogs/bitches. But, my point is, dog shows are supposed to be to pick the best breeding animals and if a dog cannot be bred for health reasons I do not think it should be shown. If someone shows a healthy animal that is capable of breeding and then decides for one reason or another not to breed thats one thing, but to know up front this dog cannot be bred I think is unfair to the purpose of dog shows.

We agree on the need for altered classes. But why should Conformation classes just be for those who want to breed?

I am planning on getting my female puppy this fall. I have second pick of the litter and hope that she will be appropriate for the show ring (if not showing promise for the show ring, she'll be spayed before her second heat). My plans are to take some handling classes and if we're good enough, attain her championship. I then plan to spay her and to move on to obedience and 'performance' tasks. I have NO plans what-so-ever to breed her.

So by the definition you suggest, I shouldn't show her. What's the point of her getting her championship and possibly beating other dogs? She'll never be bred. Even if she's OFA Excellent like her mother, I still won't breed her. I just want to show her and have fun with my dog! :D

Carol - I really respect your position. It must be tough to go through the expense and the effort of going to a show only to be beaten by a dog that you know isn't as structurally sound as yours. I can appreciate the dedication it must take to campaign a dog.

Just from my point of view, showing will be fun! To prove that my dog is better conformationally than the other dogs in her class. For me at least, from my perspective, it's about showing; not about proof for breeding.

I guess I just don't seem the harm in showing any dog. Again, my interest is in having fun with my dog and supporting my wonderful breed. :)

[Michele Baxter]

Carol,
I agree with you.
I'm sorry, I guess I'm one of those crazy or over the top people :) but I believe the dog show IS an "evaluation of breeding stock" hence that's why there is NOT an altered class. I think there probably should be--and they would compete separately---but to say that a dog that has a fault that TOTALLY disqualifies them from breeding (according to a code of ethics club) then what is the point? That's why I think the Stud Dog and Brood Bitch class are very important. I think it's a great thing and should be offered in more venues than the National and a few Specialty shows.
I know a dog of another breed---that is a finished Champion. This breed usually finishes pretty quickly BTW. When they x-rayed the dog it had dysplasia. The owners are STILL campaigning this dog. I'm sorry, but especially in the BOB and Group competition I would feel it a real problem for me if my dog were beat by a dog that had HD+ status and is collecting Group placements. Because you know, all that is doing is encouraging these owners to consider breeding this dog. "Well, she's done SO well in Group competition. If she's bred to a HD- dog then maybe we'll be all right with the pups." Sorry, but I've seen it and heard it said already.
So, I guess I'm in the minority here Carol, but I agree with you. :)

[Donnerberg]

The American Rottweiler Verein has taken a stance on this issue and has a new rule regarding hip clearances:

As of June 2002, any dogs over 36 months of age must have a valid passing hip rating either from OFA, Penn Hip or a certificate from their country of origin to be eligible to enter the show. Dogs who do not have a passing hip rating are not eligible to enter. Hip certifications and registration numbers must list the whole number and rating as it is printed on the dog’s original certificates.

The opinions in this forum may favor showing dysplastic dogs in the breed ring, however this same issue was brought up on another board called The Informed Rottweiler and the unanimous opinion there was in favor of this new ARV rule.

And while I'm on the subject of new club rules, the ARV now allows tailed Rottweilers in their shows:

As of June 2002, Tailed dogs born in North America must have tails docked or are not allowed to be shown. Only tailed dogs eligible to enter and show are dogs whose country of origin is in Europe. If a dog is imported after the date that tail docking was banned in their country of birth and the tail is docked, they are banned from ALL ARV events.

[Judi W]

Slight correction. It was not "are you in favor" but is it ethical within the AKC venue. Personally, I consider it a waste of money, however as the AKC rules are structured, it is not unethical which implies cheating.

The ARV has taken many bold steps in recent years and is to be applauded for such. The requirement of HD status at 3 years or older is new. Does this mean that those who did show HD positive dogs in the past before the rule went into effect were unethical?

[Orville Story]

I won't cosider that unethical, I would consider it rather unsportsmanlike. There are a ton of motives to keep showing a dog other than proving the dog breedworthy alone.