Opinions wanted!!

[Charlotte Whipkey]

It says right on the AKC site, at the link for beginners to dog shows, no less...that the shows are intended for evaluating breeding stock. I also believe that for less than novices (in some cases) seeing dogs being shown that are not breedable (for whatever reason) and winning over what is the better dog as far as what the true intention of the breed ring is meant for...is detrimental and gives them the wrong ideas. I think it is both unethical and unsportsmanlike for a dog that is not breeding stock, for any reason and particularly if it has a hereditary problem or it cannot work (working dog class is what you are showing in) to be shown in the breed ring. Regardless of what people might like to think...it was and still is intended for breeding dogs or will be breeding stock. To "take" the points from a dog that is quite able to do the work and has all the qualities that we all admire in the breed and want passed on is just not right.

Hurray for the AKC, for a change, and all that worked to have the ofa instigated into the elegibility qualifications! It should have been done a long time ago. I would like to see an obedience title added to the qualifications to earn a Champion title. Why? Again, because they are a working breed. If they can't work, they should not be contributing to the gene pool.


There should definitely be a class for dogs that are ineligible/unintended for breeding, but it should be separate from the dogs that are definitely going to be carrying on the breed. People who just want to show because they enjoy it should be able to, but not in the breed ring. There are many classes in which to show and more enjoyable (IMHO) than the breed ring, but those who enjoy it should be offered the opportunity. I would think it wouldn't be all that hard to convince AKC to add one if enough interest was shown. It would create more revenue and also actually promote spaying/neutering. Looks like a win/win to me for everyone...AKC, breeders and the people who want to show. In theory, rescue (Private and Organizations) should benefit...eventually.

Char

[Donnerberg]

Originally posted by Charlotte Whipkey
Hurray for the AKC, for a change, and all that worked to have the ofa instigated into the elegibility qualifications! It should have been done a long time ago. Char

I think maybe you've confused the American Kennel Club (AKC) with the American Rottweiler Verein (ARV) or the American Rottweiler Club (ARC).

[Charlotte Whipkey]

<<I think maybe you've confused the American Kennel Club (AKC) with the American Rottweiler Verein (ARV) or the American Rottweiler Club (ARC).>>


Yes, you are right! Thank you, for straightening me out on that. :) Too bad. :( It would be a wonderful step in the right direction.

Char

[Goniella]

Ok yes the reason dog shows began was to evaluate breeding stock..however that is NOT what it is today....how many of you have seen poor examples of the rottweiler breed in the show ring? Whether its temperment east/west front lacking in bone small head,fly away ears gait terribly off etc. Not every dog showing in the rings today should be bred! As far as a dog who didn't pass OFA....well that doesn't make the dog unbreedable in AKC's eyes....or in the eyes of most of the world. It only makes the dog unbreedable to the people that care about the breed and who are responsible about their practices or are part of a COE club....so the dog is still being evaluated as breeding stock even tho the owner may CHOOSE to never breed her.Face it the dog is STILL breeding stock in the AKC's eyes until she is spayed... The woman showing this dog is no different then myself I have a male who will probably never have the glory of procreation but I will show him anyway....to me he is not breeding stock but to the AKC he is.......this woman may never breed this dog BUT she can still breed her at anytime which makes her yup you guessed it *breeding stock* As stated above it is all about the judges *opinion* on that day....seriously it isnt anything to get in a tizzy about.... conformationally the non OFA'd dog just may deserve all her wins :)

[roccorottie]

well, I have some thoughts and I'm wearing my flame-retardant suit. LOL

you say:
I think it is both unethical and unsportsmanlike for a dog that is not breeding stock, for any reason and particularly if it has a hereditary problem or it cannot work (working dog class is what you are showing in) to be shown in the breed ring.

What exactly is a show dog's work? Trotting to and fro in the show ring, much to the (subjective) discretion of the judge on that day? Earning a ribbon? What is the work? Maybe they should give the handlers a ribbon, as I see more handlers doing work at shows than any dog. JMO, but I consider it unethical to show dogs that are of poor temperament (who cares about their hips then?), wet themselves, cower, are fear-biters, show aggression to judges, et al...what a crime against all things that most breeds were designed for.

then you say:

To "take" the points from a dog that is quite able to do the work and has all the qualities that we all admire in the breed and want passed on is just not right.

all the qualities WE admire and want passed on is quite subjective eh? While one admires a perfect conformation specimen, others admire one that can truly work (show does not=work to me)...in a venue like Schutzhund, SAR, Therapy Dogs, PSDs, Ring sport, NAPD...something that shows physical ability with a "clear between the ears" and balanced temperament/drives.

For me personally, I don't care if a dog has a roomful of ribbons if it's of poor temp, has shoddy nerves and no drive. Someone else might only care about show titles...so you can't paint all dog owners and what they admire with one broad stroke. Just as I have come to accept those who only show (often at the expense of more important traits), I think we need to realize everyone's ideal is different and others do what they want anyway.

What I find interesting is you make no mention of anything but the fact that this dog is beating everyone else. This goes to the core of what I dislike about the insidious nature of dogs shows: jealousy, greed and who has the cash & influence...it's more about the people, their socio-economic class and hardly ever about the dogs. I see nothing wrong with this situation, so long as this person isn't breeding a dysplastic, ill-tempered canine. In fact, I hope she's bringing her dogs to the shows in a beat up '75 Suburban and wearing Kmart clothes in the ring! "Oh my, the nerve of it all, cried the woman in Gucci from her Range Rover."

LMAO ("Best in Show" was fairly accurate imo)

Just my 2 pennies...flame away, I'm insulated.
:D

[willowwins]

To me it dosnt matter the better dog/bitch in the ring wins its a sport and is up to the owner or breeder just because it did not pass should not mean it can't be shown I have nothing against them showing and if it is winning must be a nice dog hats off to them nothing unethica unless they end up breeding . I seen allot of dogs that are OFA Good that look like Sh*t and shouldnt be shown but the main thing the owners are proud of what they have and enjoy it.
We are not breeders nor will do I have plans on breeding but will always show because it is a hobby.

[laurlitt]

My dog Blaise is not 'cut-out' to be a Schutzhund dog but I still train him and will go for a SchH I if it works out that way... just b/c he's not going to bred (b/c of his lack of working genetics) doesn't mean I won't continue to work him... okay, so this is a bit different than the 'showing' scenario. However, even though many say that showing is the test for breeding ability I truly hope that many of the dogs I see in the ring aren't bred!

Here's another scenario that I think is wrong. When dogs have collected all their single points and only need majors to finish off their championship you always here about them pulling the dog or not entering shows that aren't majors just so the other dogs can get their single points. I think removing competition so the others can get points is not right. I'm not saying everyone has to enter all shows, but the point that people want others who no longer need singles to not enter so the others have a chance is not right... May the prettiest dog win and if your dog can't beat out those dog then sobeit... Just my thoughts... We'll see how I feel when I'm actually in the environment of showing... Personally I think go to a German Style show and get your v-rating, then you don't have to worry about competition... if you've got it, you've got it!

[JoJo]

I'm not a breeder, nor do I show dogs. But being once a show person (horses) the ring is for the BREEDER. These people put too much money in promotion, entry fees, handler fees, travel etc. to make it just their hobby! They want something in return and they will do whatever it takes to get it back. Now maybe they won't breed this particular dog that is winning in the ring (which has poor hips) but this dog is giving them that reputation as a quality kennel. Heck, the beauty is in the pudding! But then again, they may breed her. Unethical, yes. All the way. I like what the ARV has adopted and the AKC should follow suit. It's only right. That way only the ones who really care what they produce will show. To prove that their dog is physically sound, would help weed out the poor ones and start bringing back the quality of the Rottweiler for which it was once. Also the quality of the shows themselves. I wonder if the AKC even has the guts to do it? ;) They may lose too much money themselves!! JMO

JoJo

[willowwins]

The ring is just for the breeder ??? Why is that I know allot of people it is a hobby away to show off something they are very proud of. So if the dog with bad hips is winning then must be a better dog to me and if the owner and the dog is enjoying it then thumbs up.
What about the low quality dogs in the ring that don't meet the standard but pass OFA ? We have of enough of them.

I heard mention about ARV they only allow dogs with passing hips to show ? So does that mean they cut out all classes except over 2 years of age ?

I don't think AKC or ARC or the other clubs will follow I think they will leave it up to the people to let them make their own Judgments on what enters the ring .

Great for ARV to adapt that new rule but what about the low quality dogs/bitchs that are allow to show will they adapt a rule saying only V1 dogs and bitchs are allow to show?

Kind of like people getting dogs from shelters and rescues and show obedience, should they be doing that ? I think so not just for the breeder but to promote our breed in good light same thing goes for the conformation aspect it is to promote our breed, some do it to promote their stud or brood bitch that is what we have specialties stud class and brood bitch classes wont see many non passing OFA dogs in them.
Also what about the puppy mills that get lucky and have one dog pass OFA and then promote like crazy should they be allowed to show never going to stop people doing what they do either they are honest when you ask them about their breedings or not would not use the conformation ring for that.

These are JMO

[TrishB]

Hiya again,

Carol, I mean this with the greatest respect and admiration - please do not take this in the wrong way.

Don't you think the question should be why this dog is beating yours - or more to the point, what your dog is lacking so that he cannot beat this other dog? Maybe it's his fitness level, behaviour in the ring, coat - you know, things that you can easily improve?

I'd like to think that you could just reassess your own dog and make some alterations to beat this other dog fair and square. ;)

Unrelated, but an interesting point:

I went to one of those horrible puppy mill sites. They talk about changing breeds to breed like we change our underwear. One thing that did stick out in my mind was how they attempted to set themselves apart from 'show breeders'.

They said that they weren't 'elitest' like show breeders or 'snobs'. They toted themselves as 'the regular joe' that breeds pet quality dogs for people who just want pets. They feel that they fulfill a niche that is required in the pet market. They feel that the dogs they create are 'for the masses'. They go on about how 'show people' couldn't possibly identify with their clientelle due to their 'elite attitudes'.

Do you think that maybe it's the same attitude that these people are feeding off of? That you shouldn't enter the ring unless you have the 'perfect' dog and that all others shouldn't bother or dare to take points from a 'deserving dog'?

I know I'm playing devil's advocate here. No, I DO NOT agree with what these wing-nuts are saying. But do you think that maybe we're feeding these people with that angle that they need to continue their business?

Another point:

It concerns me that if a dog cannot win on their own that they are just shown continuously at various shows until they finally attain their championship. How is that proving that they are superiour and breeding quality?

I guess this is why I would love to see the percentage of wins and ratios of shows to wins. Sure, a dog may be #1 in Canada / US, whatever, but if they were shown in 200 shows when the #2 dog was only 3 points behind and only shown in 100 shows (just examples of course) - who's the better dog? :p

I'm just throwing ideas out there, thoughts on the fly.... Food for thought.

[Charlotte Whipkey]

Let me point out that I AM not saying that anyone here personally would breed their dog or that you are a bad owner. I would say that most, if not all, the people here are on this forum are here cause they are an above average owner. People who do care about their own dog/s and the breed itself. I am stating my opinion and what the AKC has on it's website as well, the way I read it. I am not a "newbie" and have owned Rotts for 18 yrs. In May of 1989 I handled Sparks to her first pt (yeah, I know big deal...was to me) and on July 4th she turned 2 and showed HD+ on her OFA x-ray. She never set foot in the breed ring again. As much as I loved her and as beautiful as she was to me and her breeder, she didn't have a place there.

Sparks did have her CD and she got it in 3 straight shows...a title she got before I entered her in confirmation. Something else a lot of people didn't do as it was believed a "show dog" couldn't/shouldn't be an obedience dog first...not in this area anyway. We started learning confirmation while working on her obedience title at the same time. She didn't enjoy showing obedience so I didn't pursue the CDX. So I have been there and done that.

Oh, and btw...I was the one in the 72 Dodge van, wearing clothes I got at the Salvation Army and if I was showing yet, would be what me and the dog/s would still be arriving in and I'll most likely still be wearing clothes gotten at the same elite store. An elitist or ego maniac?...me? Thanks, if that was for my benefit. I needed a good giggle.

I believe the question was if we thought showing a dog who shouldn't be bred was unethical. I believed it was 13 years ago and I believe it still is today.

I also stated I felt a Champion should have a working title before being issued the title of Champion, which would tie into showing it could "work"...the higher the level of working title, the better. Perhaps I said that badly the first time around.

Temperament is a very important thing and in this day and age, needs to be given more attention. I have nothing against someone showing in obedience or any other event if the dog is able and the handler is willing to put in the time. I would and have encouraged it and enjoyed it myself (a lot more than the breed ring). It helps create a bond between you and your dog that is a wonderful thing to share...as well as displaying our dogs in a favorable light as someone else had mentioned. The working dog competitions are more in a line with sports, IMO, but if I were looking to get a good dog...would look for working titles in the lineage (back to that old, looking good ain't good enough thing) and not 2 or 3 generations back. Schutzhund, herding and agility are all working events -the way I see it.

I still think dogs being unsound temperamentally or physically and/or going to pass on what could be a disabling trait (HD, OCD or a multitude of others) should not be in the breed ring competing. A separate class where the judging would be the same with the exception it would be spayed/neutered contestants...yes, I'm all for it. The breeders would still get the chance to show that their dogs throw typey get and everyone else would get the thrill of the ring. For the dogs that are worthy of breeding and able to, but wont be bred...I don't see the point.

The breed ring has deteriorated, yes. Maybe we should be asking, why. Was it because the quality of dog isn't out there anymore, or did politics, monetary gain, egos (as someone mentioned) and a lackadaisical attitude help? Kevin, I believe, said the AKC and ARC would allow the people to decide what is shown and deemed worthy of being in the breed ring. Seems to me, that's what has been going on and yet I hear many complaints about the quality of dogs being shown.

As for the obedience ring (and other performance events) ...yes, everyone should be able to enter and compete. I believe it was designed for that, hence fixed dogs and ILP numbers. I have a dog here I am considering getting an ILP on and entering. If we get around to it, then I'll allow my ego to enter into it as I'm quite competitive and will be looking for not only the blue ribbon but a high in trial as well.

As far as the AKC and most of the world still considering the dogs as breedable so that makes it alright?...well, a lot of the world thinks our breed and others should be muzzled and/or banned and some even think all breeding of them should stop. Does that make it right or okay? I think not.

I have a tough hide, so won't need a flamesuit.

Char

[poohbearsmom]

I've been under the impression that the conformation ring is a BREED ring. I'm pretty new at this, so perhaps I'm mistaken. I think I would be a bit put out if I forked out the dinero to enter the show, stay in a hotel, eat crappy fast food, and buy tanks of gas for my van, only to find out I'm putting my dog in the ring with a dog that can't ethically be bred. Yes, this is a hobby for me, and I enjoy all aspects of showing so far, but I do like to have money in my bank account, for those unexpected trips to petsmart.
Personally, if I found out that my dog's hips were questionable with a prelim at 12mos, I would take him out of the ring for the next year. If, at 2yrs, his hips did not pass, he would live the life of a king, and simply be my companion. I don't have tons of $$ to be throwing down the drain showing a dog that I can't breed. I'd find another passtime for him, and he'd be a happy camper, and so would I.
Is it unethical that this person is doing this? Well, honestly, I guess not, but it would make me a bit grumpy if my dog lost to a dog that shouldn't, by all accounts, be bred.
JMHO
Elisabeth

[willowwins]

Elisabeth hit it on the nose love what she said and I think this goes to most if the dog had bad hips it would live at home as a king I feel the same way as she does.

Getting back to the ring:

I love all that show/work and try to educate in and out of the ring at least they are trying to promote our breed which I know Carol and this she does.

But I say doesn't matter to me if the dog shown is HD and if winning hope it fits the standard and if the breeder is the one that said that's my boy or girl and hey I'm showing but I have bad hips at least they said it not hiding it. But if it was told by a second party I would not take it as truth and wouldn't even think about it I would just say the better dog won we all get upset when we lose we all want the best and we all feel the best is ours way it should be.
Never seen Carol get mad when she took a 2-4th always a kind word most of the time Carol wins so I don't think this pertains to her she is just asking a question whether or not do we think it is ethical to show a dog knowing has HD.
We have all been beaten one time or another to a lesser quality dog can't get around it and we all got mad and some when beaten yell politics we all have our own opinions.
Me personal I would rather get beat by a dog with HD that fit the standard then a dog with a raunchy topline no gait and looks like a greyhound doesn't matter what show venue it is seen them in both.
But if we all want to be I guess ethica and not take chances then wait till dog/bitch is two years old or older and after OFA then show once we get the results and all together skip the puppy classes which are given.
We all have our own opinion to what fits the standard as well and most of the time it is our own dog and not the one in the ring I hear so many times people putting down what is in the ring you know like man look at that topline! or that dog has no head ! or look at that gait! on and on .Nobody is perfect. We almost all do it either saying it to ourselves or to a friend next to us or when we get home hop on the internet and tell our friends or the whole World where instead let it go and just go on with our showing. And hope the better dog wins. To allot of us it is a hobby or anyway how it starts then becomes addictive rather throw my money in the ring then throwing it away towards bad things. If it was just for breeding then we would not have puppy classes and sweepstake shows but we do have specialties that are for our breeding stock and they are stud classes and brood bitch classes which seems very few enter.

[Goniella]

Ok lemme say that not passing OFA doesnt neccessarily mean that the dog is dysplastic. Xrays to OFA are subject to the opinion of that examiner that day. Here is a little example... I know a dog that prelimmed beautifully.. at about 18 months he broke his left front toe, Now what do we do when we injure a walking limb? We compensate by putting most of our weight on the good limb right causing stress to the joints in the compensating limb....Well at 2 this boy OFA'd with significant changes to his right elbow and was not issued a number. He is not dysplastic in no way shape or form moves beautifully is in no pain etc. Another example... I am 23 years old and I now have arthiritis in my thumb my ankles and one of my hips...why???? Because of past injuries. This can happen to dogs too and when it does guess what they are issued no OFA number. My arthiritis bothers me very seldom but its there. Just because a dog isn't issued an OFA number doesn't neccesarily mean they ARE dysplastic.


Now back to the show question. To the people who said they would be upset if this dog beat their dogs in the ring......would you be upset if the dog was indeed conformationally more sound that your dog? I don't care who beats my dog nor who he beats period. My dog will never be bred so I don't feel like I have to OFA him but I will continue to show him and at 2 years old I will have xrays taken for my OWN peace of mind......I might submit them to OFA I might not. If this dog is still moving soundly and showing and is conformationally sound then they deserve to be in that ring and deserve every win they get and guess what their owner is being honest about it......If you don't want to lose to a dog that can't ethically be bred than I suggest you get out of showing now....there are alot of dogs out there being shown that will never pass OFA,never pass a temperment test, have genetic disorders that can be passed down to their offspring..trust me their are ALOT more of these than most people think...and the sad part is these dogs could be placing over your dogs everytime and you will never know their downfalls. Your dog is bound to place under an ethically unbreedable dog sometime in its show career..so if it bothers you get out now and stick to obedience.

[Carol Burke]

Thank you, Guys!! I really apreciate all your opinions. I would like to say one thing, I am not showing a special at present and the dog that is being shown with bad hips does not impact me in any way. I asked your opinions because of a discussion I was involved in with some other show people.