What the H*ll is going on with Temperament?

[Michele Baxter]

I just returned from some shows over the weekend, and I gotta say....what the H*ll is going on with rottweiler temperament?
In this weekend alone, we had one dog DQ'd for biting the judge on the upper arm (although it wasn't serious and did not break skin) then we had a novice handler in with her very obviously dog aggressive male who then proceeded to growl and "eye" the judge while he was being examined--while she was not controlling the head--smart judge made her show the bite and dentition. The dog could hardly make it around the ring because he kept looking back at the males behind him. Then we had yet ANOTHER dog who was intent on catching the male in front of him and taking a chunk if he possibly could---straining against the leash and hackles up. Now, don't get me wrong, I understand that the rottweiler standard states that dog aggressiveness is not to be penalized---but for crying out loud folks we're at a DOG SHOW--these dogs should at least be trained to ignore it. Obedience dogs are trained to ignore distractions--why can't these conformation dogs "leave it?"
Then, I hear a story that a male Special attacked a Bitch IN the ring a couple of weeks ago in NM. Just curious if anyone saw that since I didn't. But no one was excused in that instance.
What's up folks? I try to train my dogs from a young age to get used to the sights and sounds of a dog show. They need to ignore other dogs and pay attention to their handler and the task at hand. I know that you have times when this doesn't always happen, but geeesssh. Just a couple of weeks ago in KY we had another judge bitten by a rottweiler. Of course, the judge said she had cold hands and when she examined the dog's testicles he got her. I'm sorry, but my dog KNOWS to accept the examination--cold hands or not. I would have a "come to Jesus meeting" with him if he ever growled at a judge much less bite!
He's not a teddy bear and treated as such--he KNOWS better.
What's going on? Are the temperaments getting worse even with our "well-bred" dogs? Are we breeding too high strung dogs? To me, my interpretation of the standard is a well rounded dog with a good work ethic, amiable, confident, and courageous. But I want my dog to be able to live in the house, with my family and not have to worry about them destroying my house or biting someone. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't want an "over the top" dog or extreme.
Has anyone else seen anything else like the instances above? What's your opinion?

p.s. I'm not trying to spread rumors with the above noted examples, I was there in person except for the instance I so noted. I just am amazed that I have witnessed it and heard about it with such frequency lately.

[willowwins]

happens everywhere in every show venue I been to it is very sad I agree Michele. And people wonder why some Judges are shy when it comes to our breed .

What can we as show people and responsible owners do obedience train and socialize are dogs and not leave them in a crate except when time to show.

[Judi W]

With the special - he was excused.

As far as much of the other goes. Example. We have someone who says - where is there going to be a dog show - I want to enter my dog. I know that I am not responding to the question, but I always suggest that they find a conformation class and attend matches. I don't want to send someone to a show with a dog that has no training or experience and if they were in a class and had been attending matches, they would then get the referrals on to local shows. Asking "where is there a dog show" tells me they have not been involved in training or matches.

It is like entering your child in Wimbelton without any lessons or even club tournements. It is not fair to the dog, the judge or other exhibitors.

We see this over and over. Someone hears about the specialty, they have a nice dog, so they brush it up and take it without any preparation for the dogs mind. Sometimes it is a poor pup that is simply terrified. Sometimes it is a young adult which is even worse as they are feeling their strength. I don't believe it is temperament, I believe it is naive owners who don't have a clue as to their individual dog, nor as to what goes on in a ring or how crowded it can be at the gate or in a large class. Unfortunately, this is sometimes stiumlated by a breeder who says "show the dog" without saying "train the dog for showing" first. They don't know how to keep their dog's head next to their leg when they are smushed together, they have not trained the dog to be examined by strangers and behave like ladies and gentlemen. We have always had dogs that thought they would like to take over the ring. This is not new. The difference now is that often we have owners who do not know what they own!!!! They think they own "Muffy" and they always have an excuse or reason for the dog's misbehavior - none of which lands on their own plate.

In the old days, a dog could bite three judges before it was disqualified and trust me, there were more than a few judges and handlers bitten. Now the dog gets one chance and they don't have to get a piece of someone, they only have to make an attempt. That is as it should be. Judging should not be a courage test for the judges. If people realized the risk they take of having the dog DQ'd for life, perhaps they would make a bigger effort - but "Muffy" wouldn't ever misbehave..............

[willowwins]

I agree all the way Judy or how about the handlers that know the dog is aggressive but money speaks and they take their chance to see what happens.
Or people who have a dog that does it and tells everyone else this is the correct temperament? People see mine are laid back but very self assured the way the temperament should be and in the standard self assured.
Everyone has a excuse when their dog acts up but hear is my thought if I was at a show and my dog was acting up I would pull him before I entered the ring we all have our days but to enter and take a chance no way.

[Ilovemypuppy]

It's time the standard was changed for the ring...no aggressive behavior AT ALL...IMO.......it's a sign of poor to no socialization.........one of the most important training aspects with a dog such as a Rottweiler. It's just perpetrating the reputation that we are all trying to change...the most perfect conformation dog is still only a menace if it is aggressive. It's not fair to others showing either, and certainly something a judge should NEVER have to put up with. Otherwise it's all window dressing, that CH. before the name.

[Hadoken]

I am a bit confused. Shouldn't a handler know the dog pretty well if they are handling them in a show ring?

What about the owners or whomever the dog spends most of its time with?

It seems with the routine of being shown that they would be able to test the animal to see how its reaction would be or at least expose it enough to where the animal would be calm in the ring enviornment.

Do some people just breed a good looking dog and then send it to a handler? What gives?

[Ilovemypuppy]

Maybe the rules should be changed so that you have to earn an obedience title BEFORE a conformation title....truly a champion then, IMO.

[willowwins]

I have always said the same thing also before many who do Sch they should also .You know before a club accepts them instead of just jumping into it.

[fbkeays]

Originally posted by Hadoken
I am a bit confused. Shouldn't a handler know the dog pretty well if they are handling them in a show ring?

I have been able to get a handler to show a dog at ring side minutes before ring time. Most handlers don't ask too many questions.

What about the owners or whomever the dog spends most of its time with?

Denial is a very powerful thing. If the owner is fairly new the the breed .... Believe me people, even very experienced people will make excuses for a dog's behavior.

Do some people just breed a good looking dog and then send it to a handler? What gives?

Yep. It is called money. It is called ego. If there is a problem it is everyone else's problem but theirs. The more I am in dogs the more I see it.

[Gumby]

In the past year, I have started to go to some dog shows because I know a few people who show thier dogs.

There is a breeder that is always at the shows with her Rottweilers. The last show I was at, her male attacked a Siberian Husky when it left the ring. The breeder, who also handles her dogs and looks like she weighs less then a 100 lbs, managed to get her dog away and disiplined him. She has also had a dog put down for being vicious (and more that should have been). Her dogs have bitten people too. For some reason she only breeds those dogs. She doesn't think there is anything wrong with her dogs.

Last week, a wonderful Rottweiler breeder that I know was over at this bad breeder's house for whatever reason. The bad breeder had just bought three new adult Rottweilers and wanted to show them to the nice breeder. When the bad breeder (her husband was there too) took the female Rottweiler out of her pen, by the collar, the Rottweiler immediately attacked the nice breeder, tearing off her shirt and pants. The bad breeder and her husband had a hard time to stop the dog. They finally stopped it by spraying it with the hose. Luckily, the nice breeder wasn't seriously hurt - cuts & bruises and shaken up. The first thing that the bad breeder said to the nice breeder after the attack (while she was bleeding and her clothes torn off) was "Don't tell anyone because then people will think that my dogs are vicious." I only found out about the attack the next day, and the bad breeder and her husband didn't even call to see how the nice breeder was. The nice breeder said to the bad breeder and her husband "You're lucky it was me and not some child coming to pick out thier puppy."

The nice breeder, who is also involved in Schutzhund, told me that the man who had originally bred/owned these dogs, before the bad breeder had bought them, had started Schutzhund training the dogs. She said that probably the reason the dog attacked her was that the bad breeder was holding onto the dogs collar when she took the dog out of the pen and then released it.

Just a little note about the man who bred the Rottweiler that attacked. The reason he sold the three Rottweilers was because he had started breeding Bordeaux's and the Bordeaux's were attacking and killing the Rottweilers - ripping out thier spines. Nice hey?

It should be fun at future shows because the bad breeder is planning to show these dogs very soon.

[Mick Trainer]

This for me is a signal of the lack of nerve our breed is suffering of now due to a lack of working the dogs at the highest level testing the higher nerve system activity type of the dog as well as its ability to handle and settle from stress. A lack of control further highlights this problem.

Mick.

[Judy Chrusch]

Hi Michele, in all the shows I've been too I only ever saw once where and dog was dismissed from the ring bc he went for the judge and then the handler. What upset me and agitated me though was instead of removing the dog completely from the premises they TRIED to reason with this dog inside while making a scene . Everyone was saying under their breath, get that dog out of here. I have a different feeling on this whole thing, though while I agree with some of what was said, I feel as though sometimes health issues are overlooked. This particular dog never behaved in this manner, this behavior just started therefore to me that could have indicated sickness or something related to that. Many illnesses can cause this behavior, one being kidney problems. I feel as though a dog who has never had this type of behavior before should be checked out immediately if he or she has a sudden change. Unfortunately it's a guessing game with animals, they can't tell us how they feel so it comes out in other ways so I would say, any sudden change in ones behavior, have it checked out right away. As far as the handler knowing the dog and vise versa, if the dog is well adjusted and sound it really doesn't matter who takes him or her in the ring. Czar had been taken in a couple times by men and woman he never even saw before bc our handler had to go back in with one of his other dogs and couldn't show Czar. Czar did beautifully, in fact his first major was when a stranger took him back in, about the only thing that was a slight problem is everytime he even heard our handlers voice he turned completely around an to look for him. Czar had ALWAYS been very tuned in to our handler/ breeder. I don't know, I just think their are reasons for dogs suddenly attacking and or behaving this way, JMO.

Judy

[babyray]

Originally posted by willowwins
I have always said the same thing also before many who do Sch they should also .You know before a club accepts them instead of just jumping into it.

Willowwins-you are so right, and that is exactly why a BH is required before you can compete for a BST or schutzhund titles-to proof the dog's behavior in that type of venue. I agree with you-I think that some sort of basic test like that might weed out some of the bad behavior you see at shows. I feel a lot of clubs are very judgemental already and make newcomers feel unwelcome or intimidated, so I cant say I agree on testing before someone is allowed to join, after all, most people come to a club wanting to learn. I think the club should accept candidates who show an honest desire to learn, and then the club can take the responsibility of guiding that person along the path to a well trained and well behaved dog.

[Michele Baxter]

Judy,
You're right, if it is a complete personality change, then there is usually some underlying condition. But when we talked to the owner afterwards they said "he is very protective of Mom" meaning his owner and that's why he growls at the judge!!!! I just can't for the life of me understand what people are thinking of when they let their dogs get away with behavior such as this. My own dogs have had many different handlers also and it doesn't bother them in the least. I hired a professional handler on a friends recommendation--she is a top Boxer handler--we're talking BIS here--and she had my dog strung up so tight on the lead and was just entirely too rough with him. He looked at me outside the ring like "Mom, what the heck is going on here?!" I almost think all-breed handlers EXPECT rottweilers to act aggressively. I pulled him from her and politely paid her and went on our merry way. Now, I'm not saying all rotties are "teddy-bears" but a well trained dog doesn't need to be strung up. All our dogs are trained on a loose lead. They know when we're at a dog show there will be tight spaces and lots of dogs of all sizes. They know to ignore other dogs in these situations. We've have been on elevators in hotels with other dogs and my dogs KNOW to sit quietly while we are riding. I always get nice comments too---but I wouldn't have it any other way. Trust me, those "Come to Jesus" meetings are very effective!!!! :)

Yes, Judi, I am glad that they changed the rule now to "one bite" rule also. I think they absolutely should have to pass the tests in order to show again also.
Again, in a perfect world breeders would breed for conformation to the breed standard, working ability (in any venue), and temperament. Of course, not in that particular order :) but instead people breed to the "Dog of the Year" and don't consider anything else.
I was just really apalled that I've seen and heard of so many instances just recently. BTW, thanks for the info about the excused special. Of course, the breed judge from that day put him in the "cut" for the Group the following day so what does that say??
Oh well, I'm off my soapbox, thanks for the replies and viewpoints. :)

[Judi W]

Dating myself, but actually I believe most of our dogs are so much better trained and socialized today. In the not always so good old days, other than a few of us, the Rottweilers were almost always handled by large strong men who indeed had those dogs strung up and held close and for good reason! I know what you are saying about the handler, but better she have a dog strung up a bit if she didn't know him and it was a ringside delivery, than that she have her head up her...... if it turned out to be one of the aggressive dogs. Once they've had a chance to know the dogs or have seen them in the ring, they can relax a bit and move and free bait with the lead let out.

Anyway, I don't believe it is that today's dogs are worse, I believe it is because they are so much better that people let their guard down with the bad actors.

Also, just a note, my dogs love going with new people and consider it a real treat to have someone new to spoil them with bait and compliments. It would never occur to them to take advantage. Hell, they're not being asked to do anything hard, just act like ladies and gentlemen, get touched, trot around a bit and eat liver! That's a piece of cake compared to some of the stuff they have to do in their careers.