Bad Breeder

[Vivianne]

I’ve got a dilemma I hope someone can help me with. I’m so upset at my breeder I could spit. Her it is in a nut shell: He said he would have my pups akc papers to me within 2 weeks of my taking her home (she was 7 weeks old then). She’s now 7 months old and still no papers.

I’ve tried all levels of kindness ONLY so far with this person. Even sending reminders with pictures of the dog so he can see how she’s doing. My last correspondence even told him that I had proof she’d been spayed just in case he thought I wanted the papers so I could breed her.

I do have a signed contract from him and everywhere in it, it mentions akc papers. And all kinds of stipulations like if I get rid of the dog he gets first bid and all papers must be returned with the dog, etc, etc, etc.

If all I want to do is register the dog with the AKC does it really matter that I never get her papers. She’s not SHOW DOG material, by any means. And it’s not the reason why I got her to begin with.

So my question is: Is there any recourse for this problem or do I chalk it up to a learning experience? Can this person be reported to some organization, club, or agency of his bad business practices? Do I hire a lawyer? (I don’t mean that, I’m just pissed off!)

The real shame is that Madison has many admirers, and I refuse to give this breeders name out, let alone any other information. I simply tell people what happened to me, so they won’t make the same mistake I did.

[Judi W]

If your sales contract specifies the AKC registered name and number of both sire and dam, you can/should send a copy of that along with a letter to the AKC registration department.

Also, if you and the breeder are both a member of the same code of ethics club, you can file a grievance.

[willowwins]

Sorry to hear of the problem you are having with your breeder its a shame. Like Judy said if he belongs to a code of ethics club ect you can get to him that way and if you want if you bought him from our area let me know I maybe able to help you with the problem.

Kevin

[Orville Story]

If you purchased the dog as a pet (not breed stock) then what is the importance of the papers?

The papers are only of value if you intend to breed or compete with your dog. The dog will love you the same with or without them. The dog's parents are the same either way. AKC registration papers are by no means a validation of the dog's quality in temperament or conformation. The papers only officaly document the dog's lineage, and your breeder can give you that information.
It only needs to be offical if you plan to compete or breed the dog.

AKC papers are not of much importance for a pet.

[roscoe]

We might best address this topic by responding to the actual question....

He said he would have my pups akc papers to me within 2 weeks of my taking her home (she was 7 weeks old then). She’s now 7 months old and still no papers

So my question is: Is there any recourse for this problem or do I chalk it up to a learning experience?

[Judi W]

And the first thing would be to send a copy of the sales contract with all the details to the registration department and inquire as to whether a litter registration has been issued. They will guide you from there.

[TrishB]

Originally posted by Orville Story
If you purchased the dog as a pet (not breed stock) then what is the importance of the papers?

The papers are only of value if you intend to breed or compete with your dog. The dog will love you the same with or without them. The dog's parents are the same either way. AKC registration papers are by no means a validation of the dog's quality in temperament or conformation. The papers only officaly document the dog's lineage, and your breeder can give you that information.
It only needs to be offical if you plan to compete or breed the dog.

AKC papers are not of much importance for a pet.

While I agree that she doesn't need her papers, she wants her papers and should have them! It's in the contract, that's what she paid for, she should have them. That simple. I may not use all of the special functions on my cell phone, but does that mean they don't have to work? Of course not! ;)

Take Judi W's advice, I'm sure she's right about this. Best of luck! :)

[Orville Story]

I understand that she wants them. But there is no recorse here unless she wants to get her money back, and send back the dog. If the breeder broke the contract by not fullfilling it then both parties could be made whole by nullifing the transaction. The AKC is not going to become involved in any squable between a buyer and seller concerning the papers. To them it is a legal matter between the two parties.

My point was the papers have no monetary value on a dog sold as a pet. If the dog was sold as breed stock then the papers would have a monetary value aside from the dog's value as a pet.

There is no legal recoarse unless she is willing to be returned to same status prior to the contract. She would have to prove that the contract was violated, and going through the time and expense.

Best thing is just to love the dog, and forget about the papers. The breeder still may work things out.

I myself have waited months before registering a litter. And one litter I never registered.

[Vivianne]

Thank you all for your responses. It's nice to get support and feedback from all points of view.

I, was under the impression, that registration of a dog through the AKC was meant not only for competition purposes but, as a head-count sort of speak for all breeds of dogs within the nation.

Madison will not be loved or cared for any less because she has no papers. Even if she had 1 eye, was deaf and had only 2 legs to stand on I would never give her up. (back to the breeder or otherwise)

I'm very proud of my girl and her papers have a meaning to me, almost like a father proudly giving his offspring his last name. I feel she's a bastard without her papers.

Her mother is a Hungarian import: Sasha vHausMILAN
Her father is a German import: Aldo vomKoniglich
There is no litter number on my contract, so that avenue is mute.

I just hate to give up. I'm of the opinion that all Rotty owners share common traits with their chosen breed. Whether it's head strong, loyalty, or courage. So I refuse to give up until all avenues are exhausted.

I will follow up on Judi W's advice about checking to see if a litter was even registered. If it was not, then my breeder will get a letter, of just how dissapointed I am, how disatisfied I am, how unfortunate he is, and how he will never be able to use me a reference. He may not care about any of the above, but personal satisfaction will have to do. I'll just be smarter the next time.

[Zephyr]

But there is no recorse here unless she wants to get her money back, and send back the dog. If the breeder broke the contract by not fullfilling it then both parties could be made whole by nullifing the transaction.

There is always legal recourse when a contract has been breached. The buyer can send a certified/return receipt requested letter demanding the papers, citing the relevant clause in the contract. State simply [include no accusations or references to how cute the dog is now, et cetera] that failure to do so will result in a small claims court case being filed for contract breach.

Then, contact your local District or Small Claims Court, and ask for the clerk's office. They no doubt have multi-part forms you fill out to file a simple civil action for "contract" versus "tort". After you follow the instructions, and have the breeder served the papers [sheriff service is the best, though certified/return recp't mail will do] you get a court date and remember to take all your evidence and dress nicely in business attire. The judges typically are aware that the litigants are not trained in the law and will guide the proceedings. Mr. Breeder will take that **seriously**, I guarantee it.

What are your "damages"? Technically, the dog does have more $$ value even on the "pet" market, esp. if you had to rehome/sell her for any reason. An unpapered, unregistered dog is always considered worthless by the courts [technically, pets are considered property], but a dog with AKC papers is considered more valuable. Also, this owner no doubt paid more for a "purebred" Rottweiler with AKC papers, as opposed to one with possibly questionable lineage and no papers. The value of the dog is the cost she paid. The damages are the cost of the dog she paid, since an integral element of the sale was the AKC registration papers, enhancing the dog's value for resale. It has nothing to do with her future use of the dog, be it as a pet couch potato or a competition dog, though a competition dog who wins could have greater value for resale [not saying she's going to sell, it's hypothetical].

This is a simple breach of contract matter - a small claims court typically costs a person $10.00 to $50.00 to file and serve the summons. That is cheap. You don't need a lawyer. It's also easy as pie because the Courts have brochures and instructions and clerk help [can't give you legal advice however] which make filing and understanding easy. This is a contract matter - it involves a sale and written promise and there was breach - cut and dried. There are damages - the amount she paid for the dog. The owner need not return the dog or any other silly thing. The breeder/seller simply **must perform** his end of the contract, or pay her damages for his non-performance. A judge will no doubt side with her, as there seems to be only one way communication and the breeder is ignoring valid requests made to him.

Hope that helps,

Payton

PS: yes, I've sued people before and yes, I do make sure I give correct legal advice when I give it - and I've won in court before, including in Federal court, where I've handled complex litigation for over 5 years [but am not a lawyer - yet].

[Orville Story]

I have sued and been sued so you are not the lone ranger here. I have been in fed, state, and kangaroo courts.

You can argue that the papers have some value, and I can argue that they don't. One thing is for sure the dog was sold as a pet, and the onwer is happy with the dog. She is asking if the courts, AKC, or some breed club will provide her with a remedy.

None will in my opinion.

[Soapie&Buddy'sMom]

Zephyr gives good advice on steps to take if you want to do something, but if the breeder doesn't respond there isn't a lot you can do unless you want to spend $$$ and bring a civil lawsuit.

The thing is here that you are suing for PAPERS, not monetary damages. So, even if you win, and you get a judgment against your breeder of x amount, you still won't get your papers unless there is a court order, and someone to carry it out, to give you your papers. Quite frankly, I don't know for sure, but I think small claims court is exclusively monetary in remedy - that is, they don't issue injunctions, etc. that require action.

My suggestion? If the papers are truly important to you, do the small claims court thing, but also PUBLICIZE this in any and every local newspaper/tv station/etc.

[Zephyr]

The thing is here that you are suing for PAPERS, not monetary damages. So, even if you win, and you get a judgment against your breeder of x amount, you still won't get your papers unless there is a court order, and someone to carry it out, to give you your papers. Quite frankly, I don't know for sure, but I think small claims court is exclusively monetary in remedy - that is, they don't issue injunctions, etc. that require action.

Technically, one would sue for the dollar value of the dog [price paid] as the dog is now functionally worthless without said AKC registration papers. You don’t sue for the papers per se, you sue for their hypothetical value which enhances the value of the dog. The judge will understand, trust me on this. As for injunctions and what not, that’s not a remedy in a small claims contract action. The owner could ask for “specific performance” in her claim, and the judge can order Mr. Breeder to give the AKC registration papers and no cash OR the judge can award both – cash for the breach of contract [again, it would be limited no doubt by the $$ paid for the dog] AND the judge can order the Defendant to provide those papers. A judgment will automatically effect the credit rating of the Defendant/Breeder. If he already has bad credit, then he’s “judgment proof” and won’t give a tinker’s damn. However, the judgment can be enforced in a very simple manner: submit a letter to the Defendant that should he decide to not comply with the judgment, the following can take place: a) his credit rating will be adversely affected forever since you can renew the judgment ad infinitum [forever] every 7 years or so and b) you can garnish his wages [you’d need to know where he works]. The enforcement action/garnishment takes a little more work [again, it’s not that difficult if one can read simple English and follow instructions].

Look, the bottom line is, and question one must ask one’s self is this: how much do the papers matter to you? If they DO matter and they might mean the difference between entering AKC sanctioned events or not, then go after them. If they don’t mean **that** much, then chalk it up to experience.

One other thing: one can also get a free webpage and put up an explanation of the Breeder’s actions and one’s efforts to secure what one paid for and had in writing. Make sure to scan the relevant documents, then put them up on the website in PDF format. Keep the narrative truthful and straightforward. Send Mr. Breeder a letter informing him that you’ve detailed his unethical conduct on a personal webpage and will be giving out the link to anyone who asks about your dog, and you can link to it from discussion websites [I’m not sure if you can do that here].

There are also public access websites set up for publishing specific consumer/buyer related complaints – where Joe or Jane Consumer goes and submits a factual narrative of their transactions with XYZ Company or Person. You name names and let the chips fall where they may. Sometimes, public shaming does more good than all the lawsuits in the world. :)

YMMV,


Payton

[Vom Wollman]

It is amazing to me how people can go off of one persons side of the story not knowing the facts. It seems that all of you are interested in bashing someone when you know nothing of the issue or the terms of the contract. All you want to do is go by what she says and that is it. The only person that is reasonable is Orville. How come none of you have asked Vivianne to fax or e-mail you her contract? How can you tell her the recourse when you dont know what is stated in the contract? Maybe some of you can read and hear better then her. In the contract between Vivianne and I it CLEARLY states that if the dog is only of breeding or show quality that I guarantee her the AKC papers for her dog. The dog was sold as a pet quality dog. I have the contract that is in Viviannes writing and signed and initialed by her. I will be more the happy to fax,e-mail or post a copy of this contract for anyone to see. I have NEVER screwed anyone out of their papers for their dog ever. I have always been a person of my word when it comes to anything about my dogs, I dont lie. If I tell someone that they will get their papers they will.

It is unfortunate that someone can start this much crap for someone when they are in fact one hundred percent wrong.

I am courious as to why Vivianne failed to tell anyone how healthy and socialized her pup was when she got her? I guess that would be something positive so why post that.

Please,none of you have to e-mail me anymore for her. I have the signed contract and know the truth. Next time you read a post maybe you should think that what the person is saying is not true, because that is definitly the case here.

Chad

[Zephyr]

How come none of you have asked Vivianne to fax or e-mail you her contract? How can you tell her the recourse when you dont know what is stated in the contract?

Why would any of us act as a judge in a private contract matter, by requesting [how presumptuous!] a copy of the contract?! That's precisely why I recommended a Small Claims Court action. That way, both you and Vivianne can present your case to an unbiased judge and he will decide what should be done. Period.

I do have to wonder why it's important enough for you, Chad, to come here to argue that Vivianne is not truthful, but not important enough for you to smooth over the relationship and simply give her the AKC registration papers, which can be made "limited". It's a COST FREE solution to you, and you'd have come out looking far better than to come here and to call her a liar. If I were you, I'd "do the right thing" and provide Vivianne AKC registration papers for the dog, because it's her belief she is entitled to them. THey cost you nothing to provide, but will cost you in terms of reputation if you insist on making this into a He Said/She Said thing.

That means, regardless of what you think you have in writing. Often, half the job of doing business is having the grace and maturity to do right by the customer, even if the customer might not be completely right. Ask a retailer like Nordstroms how it is they have such customer loyalty - it's because they don't treat customers with disrespect, even if the customer isn't completely in the right [and I'm not saying that Vivianne is like that - for all I know, she is, and I take her at her word].

Often, the only place to look for a solution is inside yourself. Give the lady her papers and move on. You look worse calling her names. And if she sues you, no judge will allow you to stand in open court and verbally berate her or attack her. Plus, the judge will hold it against you if you do.

YMMV,

Payton