Decision time, any input appreciated

[Jamie & Odin]

For those of you who have followed my issues of weak nerves and fear and to those of you who have offered great advice, I thank you.

However, today I realized that I may be fooling myself into believing that through constant socialization, training, etc. I can ever have the assurance of a "safe" dog.

He snapped at a nine year old girl. Luckily he did not make contact, but what if next time he did? I could not bear that on my conscience. Especially knowing he has issues, and that injury to a person, especially a child is a possibility. Secondarily, I do not want to be someone who contributes to the bad reputation of the breed.

So, I am in the process of making a decision to have Odin put to sleep. This is not a decision lightly made, or one that is just out of shear "giving up" on a dog without effort. I have been working with this boy for about a year, with great advances.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[Soapie&Buddy'sMom]

I don't know enough about Odin or dog behavior in general to give you much advice, but I know from my experience with Buddy, my three year old fear-aggressive Rottie mix, that living with a dog with "issues" is very difficult but rewarding.

I can never trust Buddy in situations that I would easily put Soapie and Miller (Siren is still an unknown, but she is among the friendliest dogs I've ever met so I think she will be okay).

I know that no matter how much socialization, training, and so on I do, I will never have a "safe" dog with Buddy. however, as long as I'm willing to take the time and effort to develop him into the best dog he can be, and make sure he NEVER gets into situations that he can't handle, I'm keeping him.

Can you describe the situation where he snapped at the nine year old girl in more detail? The reason I ask is that Buddy too has snapped at kids, once even tore a neighbor kid's shirt. That was back in the old days for me, before this forum and back when I thought Buddy was going to be another Soapie.

[Vivianne]

I agree with Soapie&Buddy'sMom. My first girl was a handful. She bit my SO's daughter in the behind when she was pregnant. Talk about scary
So I never left her alone with anyone and she was muzzled at the vets, etc.
I took every precaution I could think of so as to not have a situation occur and my girl was with me for 10 years, 6 months, and 2 days. I miss her terribly.
It's a big commitment you'll have to make with Odin, but all worth it in the end.

[ILoveRotts]

I totally understand your situation. We had a rescued Rotty that became very dog aggressive. He never showed any aggression towards people but his dog aggression became severe. He tore a chunk out of my other Rott (the final straw).

We had to make the decision to put him down. It was painful because he was such a sweety with people but we couldn't trust that that would not change. Plus it was unfair to our other dog. Life was rough keeping them apart and not being able to take him to the dog park.

It was a painful time but then we realized how much tension and stress he had added to our lives. He was like a time bomb.

You have to make the decision that is best for you and your family. Don't let anyone make you feel guilty.

Good luck!

[Jamie & Odin]

Thanks for the quick responses.

The situation today is this: I take Odin for car rides as often as I can. I took him today to drop something off at my daughter's school. I was in the car in the parking lot talking to my daughter through the open window. The girl came behind the car and put her hand through the window to pet the dog. I never saw her until she was reaching in...I said "don't", Odin growled and snapped at her.

I completely understand the why's of how this particular incident occured.

I am extremely vigilant, and do my honest best to not put him in situations where he feels the need to be on the defensive. But this showed me that even for my efforts, I certainly can fail. I sure did not expect children to be in the parking lot, had no intention of exposing him to strangers in a confined space, and it happened so fast.

I guess my choices are this; keep him at home, crated when people come over, and always under supervision or have him pts. He is such a wonderful, loving fantastic dog around my family and has brought me such joy, but this just threw me for a loop. And I probably jumped to the worst conclusion.

But believe me, I have taken this responsibility very seriously since the day I realized it was an issue.

[Judi W]

Please people, keep in mind the composition of the household. If it is a household with more than one or two adults and a family with children, you are asking an entire family to live in a vigilant prison camp. It is unreasonable to ask that children carry a responsibility of this magnitude or that they not be able to enter and leave and move about freely with their friends in their own home.

If you are prepared to have the dog live its life in a kennel and ONLY taken out when on lead by one of the adults, then that is an option.

PS, I don't understand how you wouldn't expect to find a child in the parking lot of a school. What you did not expect was the child to reach in to pet. When someone sees a dog in the company of a child, they of course assume it is OK to do so. That is a natural mistake. It is also quite natural for you to consider yourself in a private area inside the car.

[codglvr]

Jamie, I too have a fear aggressive dog. That is one of the hardest things in the world to admit to. I do not trust him with children, and I every day evaluate if he would be better off PTS and away from the demons in his head. I have worked over the last two years extensively with a behaviorist/trainer on his issues and have made huge progress. Like Odin, Balder is a sweetheart with the family. You have to decide what is best for you and your family. I would recommend getting the help of a professional in making the decision. They are able to look at the dog without any predispositions or their heart getting in the way and tell you honestly what they think. We live our lifes with the thought that Balder will bite, not if he will bite, and do everything in our power to prevent one. You're right, it can happen too quickly. Only you and your family can decide how much you are willing to change your life to live with a dog like this. Sorry I know its a rough decision. Good luck, we'll keep you in our thoughts.
Michelle

[Soapie&Buddy'sMom]

Good point about the family. I live alone, so it's just me and I can take the responsibility for myself. I'm not sure what I would do if I had kids. This is one situation where there is no right answer, it's a decision each person has to make based on the reality of their particular situation.

But one thing I would do, as others suggested, is get Odin assessed by a professional trainer/behaviorist.

[Miabella]

I'm so sorry to hear about this. I just looked at your carting photos today and I was charmed.

Sometimes the best you can hope for with a fear aggressive dog is management. My sister-in-law, who is a veterinary student and a part-time trainer, has a terribly fear-aggressive Australian Shepherd that she simply cannot trust. The dog was a rescue, and she has spent a lot of time and money trying to "fix" this dog. She continues to work with her constantly, but she has become resigned to the fact that she can never be trusted around anyone other than her and her fiance. So she manages the situation by not taking her to dog parks, places where there are lots of children, and other over-stimulating areas. She is also careful not to allow people to swoop in and pet her.

She is able to do this because she lives in a rural area and does not have any children. She still must crate the dog when friends come over, and she anticipates that she will have to put the dog to sleep if she ever has a child.

[Jamie & Odin]

I sure appreciate the support and insight you all have responded with.

Family is another important issue. There is no problem with me, my husband or my daughter. My sister and her three young children just moved in with us, and there is no problem there either. Odin absolutely adores those kids and has known them since I brought him home. Of course, supervision goes without saying.

The larger problem arises with guests coming into the home. As Odin has matured (18 mos old) strangers in the home have been an escalating problem. He has developed this weird combination of fear and defense. And I realize the defense is not defense drive, but driven out of fear.

However, the point Judi W made about being in a kennel or leashed is becoming the apparent necessity. If my sister were to bring a friend over, or as my daughter grows and brings friends home and Odin were not leashed, I'm fairly certain he would bite, if he felt threatened. I had posted before about what progress we were making, and we have, but I think as he is approaching maturity, we have backslided.

I'm just not sure if this level of management is fair to my dog, or to my family. I realize this is something we have to decide, but again, appreciate your support and advice.

[Roscoe's dad]

I think there may be more than the 2 options you listed. Have you thought about a rott rescue? How is Odin with other dogs, and does it matter if it is a male or female?with all the work you have put into him I would hate to see him put to sleep. They may be able to find a match for Odin. I would almost be tempted to take him off your hands if I did not already have Guido. Others saftey is the bottom line and if you don't feel that you can guarantee that PTS or Rescue are your choices. Time to pray to St Francis for help and guidance.

[Judi W]

Responsible rescue organizations cannot take in a dog with those problems. The liability is too great. If the person who knows the dog and can read that dog best than finds the dog to be unpredictable enough that it is not safe, it is not a candidate for rehoming by a rescue group. There are many many very sweet dogs who would never consider biting a human that are being PTS for want of a home.

[Bucky's Mom]

Is there a possibility of finding Odin a home in a secluded situation (1 or 2 adult farm family home) where the dog can live and not pose a threat? - Is that available? -Lisa (Bucky's Mom)

[Jamie & Odin]

I haven't had anything else to do today but soul search (and shed not a few tears) about this. My husband and I have discussed it at length and are in agreement. I am not quite ready to give up on this boy. This incident scared the crap out of me, and made me realize that he takes a higher level of diligence than I had previously believed.

I will no longer take him out in public, and have him crated/kenneled when anyone he does not know is in the home, and leashed around children. We do live in the country, so that is not an issue. My sister and her kids are not here permanently, so by the end of the summer it should just be my family, and much more manageable.

We are currently enrolled in obed classes, so I will ask my trainer for additional assistance. If this doesn't work, I will try to find him a new home before resorting to putting him to sleep. Maybe my trainer can help me find an appropriate home if that becomes necessary.

Thank you all so much, this has been a challenge and will continue to be. I just feel such a bond with this dog, and if I can provide him a happy life without endangering anyone, then I will do so. However, as much as I love this dog, I will not put anyone at risk. Nor do I hold any illusions about his limitations or my responsibility.

[Burnsway]

Good luck Jamie! I like the decision you have made so far. Many dogs although are not fit for society does not mean that they can not have a good life. It is hard work and you will have to be *very* careful. I think you already know that. You may be surprised just how far you can go, even with a nervouse and fearful dog. Just be careful and continue keeping your family and your dog in your best interest. YOU CAN DO THAT!