Fear???

[Tara]

Within the past month or two Roxy has become either fearful or very shy and standoffish when meeting people. It started with people coming in our house, she would bark and bark and wouldnt stop. We put her in a different room a few times other times we let her stay and told her quiet, but she wouldnt stop. eventually she would warm up though to whoever came over. Our trainer said to keep her on a leash when people come over and when she starts this behavior give a few quick pops on the leash. then have the person who is visiting hold a treat in their hand and put it at their side, never acknowleding roxy. she will eventually come up to them. this has seemed to work, but she still takes a bit to warm up.
She has now started to crouch down when she meets people outside or run behind me and starts acting really biazarre. this happens sometimes. She does this in obediance class sometimes when we're walking around and the trainers try to distract her, she backs away and crouches down. People have asked me if she has been abused. I got her at 8 wks and i've never hit her.
She spent 2 months with my parents and this behavior began after we got her back. my parents never would hit her either.
oh, she has always urinated when meeting people though.
Sometimes, when we know people are coming over we will take her outside and have them meet outside and then go in, she seems to do a lot better like this.
is their anything else we can do? what could have caused this behavior?

[Orville Story]

Poor nerves cause of this behavior. This will become a greater problem after six months of age and continue to be a problem. What you are dong now, socializing her is the best thing that you can do. If you can get your visitors to be carefull of these following postures it will help her. Avoid eye contact, avoid full frontal positions ( turn shoulders side ways), avoid getting close to her.

A dog like this will bite someone if cornered, so be carefull. Her first instinct will be to avoid, or try to get the intruder to avoid. I am not too concerned about her bitting someone in your yard, because there she will have room to manuever. What concerns me the most is the trainers that you are working. Some very good trainers often misread dogs like this, and when they try to get inside her circle they get bit. You need to work with a trainer that understand that this behavior is her nerves, and understands how to work with a dog like this.

If you can't do that, don't allow the trainers to push her. Don't allow a situation where she feels she has no place to back up. Even if in the past these trainers have been able to pet her and give her treats. If she feels cornered she will bit them, and the bite will be a very vicious bite.

She can be fine just be aware of what space she feels confortable, and work on shrinking that space a little bit at a time.

[Jamie & Odin]

Tara, I also have a dog that is fearful. He has made significant improvements over time.

Other than directly addressing the situation as Orville suggested, obediance work has produced significant results. The more the dog relies on you to make decisions the better, the more the dog looks to you in times of stress as a safe place, the better. I will likely have Odin in various classes for years. I don't believe this is something that just goes away.

Stress makes this worse. I too was allowing Odin to "warm up" to strange people, and giving leash pops for growling, barking etc. This only served to increase the behavior, because his stress level was escalating. One of the most important things is to read your dog's stress level and remove her to a distance where that stress level decreases and put her in a sit, but don't leave the situation entirely, then she will just learn that her behavior remedies her fear. The most obvious indicator I use is the hair on his back. In new situations I keep my eye on his back, at the first indication the hair is raising, I say in a happy tone, "nope, that's allright" as we move away from the situation. If we can't move away, like in obed class last night, I say "watch me" and his focus moves from the stressor to me. I tell him "that's allright" once his attention is on me. And treat/praise for calm behavior.

There is a wealth of info on this in past threads. Which is where I learned it from:D

[Tara]

Thanks so much!
I just wish this wouldnt have happened! We always took her places with us in the beginning. All the neighborhood kids loved her and she was fine. She only shied away when they would come running up to her, so i always had them walk up.
Then we had to leave her with my parents and she's started like this when we got her back.
2 weekends ago was the first time i went home to my parents since they brought her back to us and on sunday i went shopping with my mom, she got very nervous. she usually will wait at the door as i leave, not try to sneak outside or anything, well, she ran right outside and leaned up against me and was shaking a little.
She doesnt act fearful around kids for the most part, it's men that she does this with outside. unless the kids are on skateboards or something like that, she hates that.
i just felt terrible when someone asked me if she was abused, they looked at me like it was all my fault.
i may be being naive, but i dont think she would bite.
i shouldnt baby her though, right, like i dont want to say it's okay it's okay, i should be somewhat stern with her?
thanks again!

[matt4800]

Abby has similar tendencies to what Jamie and you descibed your dogs being like. We have made some great strides with training and socialization over the last six months.

She now goes to the vet and does not pull away from the vet when he approaches. He was the one that suggested we work with her because he classified her as a possible fear biter. When he use to reach down in the beginning to say hello or check her out, she would growl, sometimes show teeth, and try to back away.

We also have the problem of males that come to our house. With kids and females no problem, but if one of my buddies come over that she hasn't met, it takes a few moment for her to become calm and adjusted to the new faces. I have also noticed that males who don't care for dogs or are afraid get a much less warm reception. We have found when she start to become fearful a firm no and then we put her in her place (inview of everyone) for a sit or down stay. After a while we let her up to come investigate and usually by then she has become acumated to the new faces and is very accepting.

The one thing I would never assume Tara is that she would never bite. I don't care how well-behaved the dog is, and you even have a greater chance of a bite because of her timidness/nerves. The minute you turn your back or disregard a situation, is the minute you might have a problem.

Keep up the good work and good luck,

Matt

[Tara]

i *know* that she could bite but she hasnt ever showed her teeth at people, and she only barks at people inside of our house. i guess i should clarify though, she only exhibits this behavior with some people. this esp. happens when a group of people come in at once and are very loud or for people that arent "dog friendly". when they jump back when she tries to sniff them.
some days she backs away from someone and then the next time she seems them she's so excited and wiggling like crazy!
when we meet other people walking that have dogs, she sits right in front of them and gives kisses.
Most of the time she is really well behaved, it's just those other times that concern me.
She's 10 months old (today! :D ), she was about 6 months when she went to live with my parents and 8 months when we got her back, could have this caused any of this wishy-washy behavior or is it something perhaps that was just going to happen? i should note that she didnt come from a "reputable" breeder. I've learned a lot here though and am trying my best to raise her properly. her parents are both sweeties though. we have seen them somewhat regurarly as they live close by.
i will start trying your suggestions to figure out what works best from her.
oh-her hair hardly ever raises on her back though so i guess i'll have to figure out another indicator.

[Judi W]

<<She has now started to crouch down when she meets people outside or run behind me and starts acting really biazarre. this happens sometimes. She does this in obediance class sometimes when we're walking around and the trainers try to distract her, she backs away and crouches down. >>

This does not indicate that it only occurs at home when everything is rowdy or it is non-dog friendly people. I am sure the people at dog school are dog friendly and not charging around noisely.

I think Orville pretty much covered it. Truly, however in order to help a dog with weak nerves, it is best not to practice denial. Weak nerves might be a reflection upon the dog's parents, but it is not a refelction on you and should never be taken personally. Best acknowledged is best handled. Training will help her to, if not gain confidence in herself, gain confidence in your ability to chose situations and behaviors. It will not replace what is inside of her, but it will guide her as to the world and her safety in being able to count on you.

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Jamie & Odin
Other than directly addressing the situation as Orville suggested, obediance work has produced significant results...

While Orville covered this issue approprietaly, I like to mention that obedience training does not cure poor-weak nerves. Proper positive socialization should improve the dog's fearful reactions, but still there is not guarantee.

[Jamie & Odin]

German, I can only speak for my experience with my dog. But what I have noticed is that coupled with continuous postive socialization, obed has been a significant tool in managing fear reactions when they occur, as well as building my bond with my dog so he looks to me for guidance, as well as teaching me how to "read" my dog with a fair amount of accuracy.

I understand obed is not a cure for weak nerves, but it has been a godsend in managing this dog;).

[Judi W]

Thank you. Training is not a dirty word and has allowed many fearful dogs to learn to trust their handler and live a more comfortable life. We have had more than a few learn to control their fear to the point of even being able to obtain a CD or higher by a persistent owner and an instructor that knows how to manage the fearful dog. Yes, it takes time and patience and no, it does not change the temperament but it does allow the dog to learn to handle its emotions whilst with the handler. Dogs that otherwise might never be able to comfortably leave their backyards are able to live a more complete life as a result of consistent and on-going training with an understanding of their need for direction. In many respects, weak dogs need more direction and strong ones because on their own they do not make good decisions. The world appears to be a dangerous place to them and it is not pleasant. Training allows them to understand what to expect and what is expected.

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Judi W
Thank you. Training is not a dirty word and has allowed many fearful dogs to learn to trust their handler and live a more comfortable life. We have had more than a few learn to control their fear to the point of even being able to obtain a CD or higher by a persistent owner and an instructor that knows how to manage the fearful dog. Yes, it takes time and patience and no, it does not change the temperament but it does allow the dog to learn to handle its emotions whilst with the handler...

First of all, it is beyond my comprehension (as a wise man that I am) where was it that I said something indicating that "training is a dirty word."... How did you get to make such inference?... Anyway, nerves are genetically related, therefore, the best way to attempt to correct nerves problems (shyness, fear, spokiness, etc.) is by extensively socializing the dog in the most positive way possible. And yes, training is not a dirty word. I demand obedience training on all dogs, regardless of the breed.

[WorkinDogz]

Originally posted by Jamie & Odin
German, I can only speak for my experience with my dog. But what I have noticed is that coupled with continuous postive socialization, obed has been a significant tool in managing fear reactions when they occur, as well as building my bond with my dog so he looks to me for guidance, as well as teaching me how to "read" my dog with a fair amount of accuracy.

I understand obed is not a cure for weak nerves, but it has been a godsend in managing this dog;).

And your experience is not an isolated one; but rather the RULE when owners take the time to train; not *just* socialize.

Training does not change genetics; but allows you to work with and get the most out of *whatever* temperament and genetic base you have at the end of your leash.

I concur with JudiW 110%.

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz
And your experience is not an isolated one; but rather the RULE when owners take the time to train; not *just* socialize.

Training does not change genetics; but allows you to work with and get the most out of *whatever* temperament and genetic base you have at the end of your leash.

That's right! Training does not change genetics, so how can you expect to cure a dog's shyness, fearful, or spooky behavior, with obedience training, when the problem is related to inherited weak nerves?!... In this particular case, a well-planned and positive socialization program may accomplish what "sit and stay" won't. Why to lose focus on the real problem and the best cure?... Of course, all dogs should be obedience trained, no question about it, however, extensive positive socialization is the remedy for this weak-nerved dog.

[Tara]

I do try to take Roxy out and socialize her as much as possible. We go to the park and she gets along really well with everyone and all the dogs. But on our walks when she wants to go up and say hi to people, they scoot to the other side of the path. Or when they have kids with them, the kids say stuff about wanting to pet her, and i hear the parents making rude comments. and all we're dong is walking! she's doing absoluletly nothing but walking perfectly on leash. no pulling she walks right next to me when people walk by and sometimes even wags her butt when she really wants to say hello. but i get these rude comments and looks and people pulling their kids in close. ughhhh!
We go to PetSmart and she does fairly well there, but she pees on the ground once in a while when someone pets her.

This weekend I was so pleased with her though. There are a few families in the neighborhood that really like Roxy. They were all out together, along with a 3 1/2 month old boston terrier and Roxy let everyone pet her and gave kisses and played with the puppy. actually, the bt was chasing her around!

so i'm looking for a new place to bring her with new poeple to meet, that arent scared of her. when she was just a little pup, everyone came up to her.

i've been working on the quiet command, she's getting better at it already!

as far as when people come over, should i keep her leash on her and correct her? i should put her in a sit/down stay? if i know people are coming over i try to have her meet them outside and she does a lot better, should i continue this? we did this last night and when we went inside with the couple that came over she was great! the last time they came over we didnt do this and she got to growling and backing away.

thanks for the reassurance on this and all the suggestions!

[WorkinDogz]

Originally posted by German Vanegas


That's right! Training does not change genetics, so how can you expect to cure a dog's shyness, fearful, or spooky behavior, with obedience training, when the problem is related to inherited weak nerves?!... In this particular case, a well-planned and positive socialization program may accomplish what "sit and stay" won't. Why to lose focus on the real problem and the best cure?... Of course, all dogs should be obedience trained, no question about it, however, extensive positive socialization is the remedy for this weak-nerved dog.

Sorry Cowboy. You're not entirely correct here either.

Obedience serves to build confidence in the dog and socialization serves to expose dogs to different situations and people.

One without the other is incomplete and NEITHER will be any remedy for a weak nerved dog. Socialization won't change genetic based weak nerve strength either.

Obedience has a better shot at securing a bond with at least ONE PERSON (handler/owner/trainer) that the dog can feel comfortable about turning to when the going gets tough.