Fear???

[Skip]

If weak nerves (genetics) can't be cured, then I vote for training AND socialization as the medication to keep the illness in a state of remission.

[Hawk]

Posts against the guidelines have been deleted. Keep this thread on track.

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz


Sorry Cowboy. You're not entirely correct here either.

Obedience serves to build confidence in the dog and socialization serves to expose dogs to different situations and people.

One without the other is incomplete and NEITHER will be any remedy for a weak nerved dog. Socialization won't change genetic based weak nerve strength either.

Obedience has a better shot at securing a bond with at least ONE PERSON (handler/owner/trainer) that the dog can feel comfortable about turning to when the going gets tough.

You only wish I could call you cowgirl. Sorry, can't do! :p Anyway, the above is only your opinion, so as good as you think yours is, I strongly believe that positive extensive socialization is the way to go, to try to improve the weak nerves of this particular dog. Obedience training is a must on an all dogs, so what's your point?!

[WorkinDogz]

Originally posted by German Vanegas


You only wish I could call you cowgirl. Sorry, can't do! :p Anyway, the above is only your opinion, so as good as you think yours is, I strongly believe that positive extensive socialization is the way to go, to try to improve the weak nerves of this particular dog. Obedience training is a must on an all dogs, so what's your point?!

And I wish I could call you a wise man.....but I can't.

Your opinion is minus the value of obedience. You really believe obedience is merely for conditioning sit, down, stay and heel. Look past the obvious and your horizons will be broadened.

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz


And I wish I could call you a wise man.....but I can't.

Your opinion is minus the value of obedience. You really believe obedience is merely for conditioning sit, down, stay and heel. Look past the obvious and your horizons will be broadened.

Well, you know the saying "It's a wise man that understands he knows nothing"... I, in the other hand, know better ;) :D Anyway, your mordastic being is twisting my statements, again, when you bodly say that I believe that "obedience is merely conditioning for sit, down, stay and heel." My record speak for itself. I have never ever said that. I fully understand what obedience-control is all about, and have explained so in countless of replies. Therefore, I am not going to dignify your sarcastic comment by engaging in a clarification when I know I have done better than that

I want to reiterate that a comprehensive positive socialization program may improve the weak nerves of this dog. Thanks! :)

[WorkinDogz]

Ahhhhh that's what you miss! Obedience isn't *just* about CONTROL..... it's about building confidence in a dog in a positive and useful way while at the same time building a RAPPORT between dog and the person at the end of the lead that DOES appreciatively IMPROVE fear-based reaction in the situationally weak nerved dog!

The dog.....who doesn't know which way to turn or finds himself in a situation where he is uncomfortable can and does fall back on the confidence building obedience and move into the comfort zone of the handler......

Obedience: Not just for long downs anymore... :D :D

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz
Ahhhhh that's what you miss! Obedience isn't *just* about CONTROL..... it's about building confidence in a dog in a positive and useful way while at the same time building a RAPPORT between dog and the person at the end of the lead that DOES appreciatively IMPROVE fear-based reaction in the situationally weak nerved dog!

Uuuuuuuuh! So you think you are teaching me that?! Eh? What?... OK. Once again, I still recommend a well thought socialization exposure to ease off the nervous reactions of this dog. Obedience is a must, of course ;)

[Judi W]

OK, now that we agree that it is not socialization OR obedience, but socialization AND obedience..............

One of the reasons obedience usually becomes critical is that it is very difficult to socialize a fearful dog where there is no control - either by the handler or self-control taught to the dog. The obedience helps them learn to control their impulses so they can be in the presence of others and learn from the social interaction. A dog that is cringing, or going into a defensive state of mind is very off-putting for even the most good-hearted people willing to help with the socialization.

[Jamie & Odin]

Judi W, very good point. I would say especially with an older dog, like mine. I had to have some control before I could even take him to stores, outside cafes, and to obed classes, for the purpose of socialization.

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Judi W
One of the reasons obedience usually becomes critical is that it is very difficult to socialize a fearful dog where there is no control - either by the handler or self-control taught to the dog. The obedience helps them learn to control their impulses so they can be in the presence of others and learn from the social interaction. A dog that is cringing, or going into a defensive state of mind is very off-putting for even the most good-hearted people willing to help with the socialization.

While obedience is important in the rearing of any dog, for control purposes, a fear-based behavior, like in this case, is best treated by positive socialization. Of course, this socialization program has to be methodical and gradual, where you don't force the dog to meet the "good" strangrers but you have the patience, and put in the time, to develop enough trust and relax the dog around humans without "barking" obedience commands to make the dog "sit & stay", therefore, obligating the dog to do as told... In a fearful dog that is a negative... It is all about positive encounters ;)

[frau]

I should probably read this thread all the way to the end before I post, but my time is limited.

I had difficulty with Gypsy (2.5 yo, spayed) from approx 1 yr to 2 yrs of age. She had been to many obedience classes, had been socialized heavily from the day she came home, traveled with me extensively, and had Rally-O training. She still became a maniac around strangers. I began leaving her at home.

After 2 (Christmas) she mellowed some and has continued to. She was at the SPCA for tatooing Sunday and only barked briefly at a strange dog. The tatooers (husband and wife) are Rottie owners and treated her like their own. She didn't even blink at the SPCA employees.

I told the tatooers about her former behavior and they said "Just wait until she's three--she'll be mellower yet".

This is a welcome relief to me. I wonder if most fear/agressive Rotties experience mellowing with age?

Frau

[Zephyr]

Tara,

you wrote,

i just felt terrible when someone asked me if she was abused, they looked at me like it was all my fault.
i may be being naive, but i dont think she would bite.

In addition to the good points about the fear based behaviors your dog is showing being caused by weak nerves [genetic based, not owner caused], I'd like to add a short caution when you socialize this dog and expose it to others, particularly children.

Do NOT underestimate the dog's ability to react to someone with a bite, a bite not precluded by a growl. Fear biting doesn't usually follow growling, it just happens and does so very quickly. One second you think the dog is okay, the next, she's bitten someone. A bite from a Rottweiler will most definitely hurt and with a child, could be in the face. At that point, the dog would be taken from you and likely you get sued or worse. Be careful with this dog around others.

I mention this because you wrote about the dog around kids. My first instinct would be to NOT allow this dog to be around kids, because their behaviors can trigger her fear biting, which could be disastrous for all concerned.

The problem with a fear biter is the unpredictable nature of the dog, even with obedience and socialization. A fearful dog sees the world around it and the people in that world as threats to it's existence. This dog and others like it have very heightened senses of "flight or fight", and if confronted with sudden movements of a child could react badly by biting without warning. In fact, the only warning you might receive Tara, that she's going to nip or bite, will be the cringing and or hand-shyness.

So please be careful and know that unfortunately, the dog inherited a weakness that can only be managed, not "cured". Others have noted what can be done and I think you really need to follow that regime so that you can many happy years with the dog.

I do have a question: you mentioned that you didn't get her from a reliable breeder and that you know the sire/dam of the dog. Did you pick this pup out of the litter or did the breeder? If you chose her, did you notice that she was a bit timid or holding back from the rest of the litter? If so, that might have been an indicator of her nature. Be that as it may, just know that a fearful dog can become a fear-biter if not properly controlled and monitored by you. Good luck and keep up your obedience work to build her confidence level somewhat.

(':)

Payton

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Zephyr
Do NOT underestimate the dog's ability to react to someone with a bite, a bite not precluded by a growl. Fear biting doesn't usually follow growling, it just happens and does so very quickly. One second you think the dog is okay, the next, she's bitten someone. A bite from a Rottweiler will most definitely hurt and with a child, could be in the face. At that point, the dog would be taken from you and likely you get sued or worse. Be careful with this dog around others.

While I understand your genuine concern for a potential bite from Tara's dog, still her dog is not exhibiting an aggressive fearful behavior that indicates immediate danger. As far as we know, no growling and/or snapping has happened yet, albeit I could. Of course, an unchecked fearful behavior will head into that kind of unwanted response. Tara mentioned too that it takes sometime for her dog to warm up to people, but eventually her dog accepts other people. So, without seeing the dog to evaluate him, I think that is plenty of hope to improve the fearful reactions described by Tara. I agree that children shouldn't be exposed to Tara's dog until the dog relaxes around adults and feels comfortable with them.

[Zephyr]

Hi Moderator,

I was just wondering why my post was edited. I recall putting up a link to an outside training source. Was that a faux pas? If so, I'd be happy to not do so again, but I guess being new to the board, I wasn't aware that some links were out of bounds.

Thanks and I look forward to a response,

Payton