Genetics vs. environment

[animalhouse]

Just curious, if a dog has been poorly bred is it possible to overcome genetic tendencies towards aggression and/or fear? If training alone is not enough is medecine ever effective?

[TrishB]

I would like to say that environment over-rules all. However, it's the type of environment that you have to watch out for.

A dog with a predisposition to aggression, may do quite well with an experienced, dedicated dog owner who utilizes all of the resources at their disposal (Kennel Clubs, Veterinarians, Obedience Training, etc.).

Sadly, the vast majority of homes are NOT like this.

There is also no way of evaluating the degree of the predisposition. The public at large is not interested in such things and assumes that their dog will be even tempered.

So whereas Nurture CAN over-ride Nature, it is highly subjective and dependant on many factors.

The best we can do is to research all we can about our respective breed - know their potential, both good and bad and be ready for the extremes of each. Never be ashamed to ask for help, and always listen.

[fbkeays]

Originally posted by TrishB
I would like to say that environment over-rules all. However, it's the type of environment that you have to watch out for.

A dog with a predisposition to aggression, may do quite well with an experienced, dedicated dog owner who utilizes all of the resources at their disposal (Kennel Clubs, Veterinarians, Obedience Training, etc.).

I disagree with the first line. I have two prefectly well adjusted, well socialized, correctly tempered rottweiler. I then got a third as a puppy as I did the first two. From day one this puppy was not right. He started with fear avoidance behaviors and went into fear bitting. He was terrified of everything, but at different times. He could be the most confident puppy in the world, but that was far and few. I had him in two puppy classes(Ian Dunbar) and after that basic obedience. He had more socialization then my other two had put together and then some. I had him to the vet for full workup- nothing. I had three different behaviorist evaluate him- they couldn't make any sense of his behavior because it changed on a daily basis. I couldn't train him out of his fear aggressive behavior. he just got bigger and more dangerous.
There is a difference between a normal tempered dog that had a lousy "childhood" and exibit unwanted behaviors and one that is "bad to the bone" from the get go. The first you can lay down the law and get some immediate and continued sucess. The second, depending on how severe, maybe managed, but never trusted.
Just my two cents.

[animalhouse]

fbkeays- What did you do with your third puppy? Did you keep him and accept his limitations? or did you have him put to sleep? Also, was his fear aggression towards you or society in general?

[TrishB]

Originally posted by fbkeays

I then got a third as a puppy as I did the first two. From day one this puppy was not right.

Out of curiosity, where did you get this puppy?

I'll continue to stand by my original statement (until I'm proven wrong of course ). My current dog, Bridget, came from a rescue organization. She had been in several homes before coming to me and had already had a litter of pups by the time she was one.

She had separation anxiety and a high 'flight' drive (meaning that if you turned your back, she'd be gone like a shot).

Now I know that this isn't exactly the same situation as I don't know what happened during the first year of her life. However, she was on 'death row' as a 'repeat offender' in the pound when the rescue group got her.

I had her evaluated, took her to obedience classes, and did tons of socialization work. We just happened to click. We were lucky. She didn't 'click' in her previous home.

My point is, some people will click with the right dog, regardless of their nature. By nurturing them, the majority of the time, they will respond.

By saying the 'majority' that means I have not said all. There will always be, the odd poor soul, which just cannot adjust, their past / predisposition is just too strong and that no amount of support will change.
:(

[fbkeays]

Originally posted by animalhouse
fbkeays- What did you do with your third puppy? Did you keep him and accept his limitations? or did you have him put to sleep? Also, was his fear aggression towards you or society in general?

I was the only one he was not afraid of. After repeated attempts to have positive socializtion that ended more in fear attacking behavior I returned him to his breeder. I had a contract that the breeder got first right of refusal. I was mentally prepared to put him down- but emotionally I was a complete wreck. The breeder took him back at nine months at her cost and refunded my money. I got him as a show and obedience prospect something he could do neither of. I tried agility and herding but that was too scary for him and dangerous to other people. He would attempt to attack anyone or anything for no reason at anytime. He could be very friendly with a person and five minutes later want to eat them. He was a headline waiting to happen. I was not 100 percent confident that I could keep him contained 100 percent of the time. In four years my other two dogs had gotten out twice by accident(discovered it within minutes). If he ever got lose and I couldn't find him, I would have called the police and tell them to shoot him if they saw him.
The breeder placed him in a pet home and a week later he bit a young child for no reason. The child and aunt were together in a room and the dog entered and went after the child. The breeder never believed that there was something wrong with the dog. Several of his littermates were also returned. Last I heard he was with his fourth owner. He will be three this June.

[WorkinDogz]

Nurture will not over-ride nature. Ever.

BUT...... Responsible ownership can override NATURE.

There are plenty of "bad dogs" out there with exceptional owners.

It's NOT in "all how you raise them" as so many would like to think it is.

ABSOLUTELY nurturing is critical.....but genetics; will never be suppressed completely by training or socializing or "doing everything right".

A dog with weak nerves; will continue to have weak nerves even in the BEST home.....and it will surface when the dog feels STRESSED. That stressed feeling can surface when you least expect it too.

No bad dogs, just bad owners? Bull.

[TrishB]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz
Nurture will not over-ride nature. Ever.
BUT...... Responsible ownership can override NATURE.
There are plenty of "bad dogs" out there with exceptional owners.
.....
No bad dogs, just bad owners? Bull.

In a way we agree. I file "Responsible ownership" under the nurture category. ;)

I've known some horrible dogs with some great owners who go to the ends of the Earth and back for their dogs. Their dogs are making it, but it's a trial everyday.

Not every 'lost soul' can be brought back. Some dogs are just too dangerous; a danger to their families and to themselves. I'm all for attempting every avenue. But when it comes to the safety of your family and community, responsible ownership must over-ride all else.

The reason I feel that Nurture does over-ride Nature is because that is the vast majority of canine pets! If it couldn't, then we wouldn't have them as partners through our lives. They wouldn't be the pleasure they are to have around.

In extreme cases Nature will not respond to Nurture. The same extreme goes the other way: Extreme Nurture will over-ride the best of Nature (abuse cases, some are too far gone to bring back).

Please know that I do not judge those who have had to make the desperatly difficult decision to PTS or get rid of a dog which would not respond. I have known a couple of cases of such; they are heartbreaking. Please know that you've done the best you could for your dogs, you've quieted the turmoil which couldn't be controled. You've made the right decision in a horribly wrong situation.

[LORHEL]

I second the statement made by WD, "no bad dogs, just bad owners" however, we were inexperienced with our first male. He came from a backyard breeder, a relative. Without launching into the whole story, it came down to this. If a dog starts out from birth like Zeke did, genetically unsound, there is only so much you can do.

We don't have kids, can't have them. This was our baby. We got Zeke from a relative who means well, but doesn't know anything about breeding. (Lesson learned). Zeke was the biggest of a litter of four. I know both of his brothers very well, and they too, have issues. Should they ever be in the wrong situation at the wrong time, I have no doubt in my mind they would bite. Especially the one with young kids owning him.

We spent every minute with Zeke from the time he got home, sacrificed all of our spare time, recreational time, and devoted everything to him. Granted, we did not know how to handle what happened to us, but no one could have given him more love and patience, and attempted a turnaround with him. Zeke had a bad experience in his puppy class at three months. At that point, he had a major attitude. We knew it and the instructor knew it.
After he was neutered at 6 months, things started getting worse for some reason (the neutering may or may not have affected the progressive situation). At this point, from bringing him home to six months, he really didn't have problems with people. Strangers were acceptable, he had more of an attitude with listening to us at that time. However, as I said, at about six months, things got worse. My husband was growing increasingly worried that they were not bonding. We couldn't understand why, as we had worked so hard with him. He could go for days and be good, but to give him a bath, he had to be muzzled, growled viciously the whole time. Took the muzzle off, bath done, new dog. He could turn on a dime and we found out when I asked my husband to bring him to a softball practice, thought he would enjoy a nice walk around the park while we worked out, then hubby and I would walk around with him some more.
A FRIENDLY FEMALE RELATIVE asked if she could pet him, she had dogs of her own, Lucky for us! She bent down to let him sniff her, and his nub was wagging, and he was licking the palm of her hand. She turned her hand over, to pet him on the head, and he snapped. If my husband had not been watching him the whole time, as he had grown increasingly wary of him, he would have taken her hand off no question. At that point, we didn't know if we should put him down, (based on everything else and this bite attempt) or give him some time to see if we could get past this.

Needless to say, the last month, I finally found someone willing to evaluate him. The only reason we kept on for another month is this behavioralist saw how dedicated we were to him, and he was listening to us at that point, but he was a fearful dog. He would not let anyone he did not know, near him. He had a close circle of family and friends who he never once, had a problem with. We gave it one more month, took hiim out everyday to the park, trying to desensitize him, doing everything we could so he could understand that people did not want to hurt him. He acted like an abused dog. He cringed and you could see the dread in his eyes and attitude towards new people.

The last straw and decision we had to make, came the night I took him to a softball tournament where my husband was playing.
It was a huge area with several fields, mostly used for soccer, and was spread out. We didn't even go in, we just waited out in a area by ourselves in the grass. As people approached on the sidewalk nearby, in groups, but still, probably 20 feet away at least, he freaked out. It took everything I had to hold him down, and after they passed, I left. My husband didn't even know we had been there. I called the behavioralist, and we all talked, we told her he did not seem to be getting better, in fact possibly worse. We put Zeke to rest that night. We should have done it sooner, as he could have hurt someone bad, and we would have spent the rest of our lives paying for it and regretting it.

Not many dogs turn out this way, but there ARE some who are genetically UNSOUND. Until you have been there and went through that hell, you will never know what it is like.

Like I said, we didn't handle everything "the right way" sometimes, but we loved that dog, never hurt him and gave him the best year of his life anyone could have. But what was inside him, hurt him too bad. He tried so hard, but he couldn't overcome it.

Check out these pictures, from six weeks (yes too soon) to two days before his last day- at the time, I couldn't see it, but now, I look back and see how much Zeke suffered. Not a day goes by I don't think of him, and ache for him, but knowing that we did the right thing, I can't be selfish and wish for that one more day.

[fbkeays]

Originally posted by LORHEL

Not many dogs turn out this way, but there ARE some who are genetically UNSOUND. Until you have been there and went through that hell, you will never know what it is like.

You put it so well. It is hell. What you lived thru is exactly what I lived though. My puppy acted like a severe abuse case. Some people that knew me slightly thought he was a rescue, not my well bred(both sides of the pedigree are good, but not mixed), conformation and obedience prospect. What made the hell even worse was the breeder told everyone that would listen that I was the one that caused his behavior- that I abused him.

Originally posted by LORHEL

Not a day goes by I don't think of him, and ache for him, but knowing that we did the right thing, I can't be selfish and wish for that one more day.

I would burst into tears for months after I returned him to his breeder. I morned my loss. I couldn't go to a dog show for more then six months afterwards. I finally thought about getting another puppy about 9 months afterwards. I didn't end up with one until nearly a year and half later.
I just wished I had the guts to put him down. You did the right thing with your Zeke. My condolances.

[TrishB]

Fbkeays, Lorhel,

My heart goes out to you both.

:(

[moondog]

Originally posted by TrishB
The reason I feel that Nurture does over-ride Nature is because that is the vast majority of canine pets! If it couldn't, then we wouldn't have them as partners through our lives. They wouldn't be the pleasure they are to have around.

I don't get this. This seems to be giving too much credit to people for what comes naturally to dogs. Is it not their NATURE that suits domestication? They're social by NATURE. What we add by nurturing is icing on the cake, is it not?

[Judi W]

Fear and aggression are certainly not limited to poorly bred dogs, nor are all poorly bred dogs afflicted with poor character.

Whether well-bred or poorly-bred, character traits that are inherent cannot be replaced by environment. They can usually be managed by environment except in extreme cases, but what comes with that DNA does not simply go away and become replaced with nuturing no matter how clever. Dogs can and do learn to manage their fears and/or they can learn to have behaviors imposed upon them with training, but as WD indicated, under stress what is inside will come out. That is why controlling the environment of dogs with aggression problems is such a large responsibility. (and it's not much fun either)

[WorkinDogz]

Once again, Judi you hit the nail on the head.

Controlling the enviornment is part of nurturing that keeps dogs out of the headlines.

Trish,

Nurture takes on many forms. From proper socialization and rearing through training to creating a healthy human pack-order.

Nature however; says whether that's enough.

I've spent a lot of years around abused, neglected dogs. One thing that shines through everytime though.......the genetic makeup (nature) of the dog will be the determining factor in whether rehabilitation (nurture) can be effective and to what degree.

In the same breath....there are many dogs who only ACT like they have been abused....due to a weak nerve and less than stellar character that has nothing whatever to do with the nurturning they received.

Genetics says what kind of pet they'll make....and ownership says whether we'll read about the not-so-good ones.

Remember Trish....the FAMILY PET is responsible for a very large portion of bites reported.

[animalhouse]

If you have a dog that is unpredictable in the community but happy and well behaved at home and a few other places that the dog is comfortable, is that a good enough quality of life for the dog? Is it really missing out by not going to parks and stores? Assuming that everything has been tried but the dog will never do well in the community would any of you keep the dog?