Fila's And Dobermans

[BIGWRIGHT]

Hi everyone,

I know Ihave bene gone along while but us Military People have been really really busy as of late my question is a two part question actually about two different breeds. Of course the rottie is #1 in my life along with my boxer but I have wanted to know more about the Fila dog I have read a few posts and even subscribed to their magazine but the way some people feel on in the forum is that a Fila is to much trouble and nothing like the breeders say that it cannot be trusted around new people at all. Does anyone have any soild eveidence of that because talking to breeders that is not the case. The fila according to breeders are excellent family watchdogs that have a distrust for strangers but can tell the difference between friend and foe after reading the Fila magazine the sound like a great large dog not for everyone but a great dog. SOund like our Rottweilers and the bad reps they recieve. So I would like to know more about what people really think about the Fila.


Dobermans I have always wanted adoberman but they say their are no true doberman breeders left either they are watered down or vicious dogs waiting to strike at their owners. I want to know what you all think about the distant cousin of our beloved rottweiler. They look like a great working dog those you can find and I really want to know from people who have had experience as well as maybe owned one to find out if the bad rep is just some bull made up by the same people who who pen are rottweilers as the same bad breed.


Also American Bulldogs anyone know anything about them by experience or by good or bad. I'm doing allot of research on these three breeds for a paper and I wanted to get the experience of the Forum and find out what you all think of these breeds.

Thanks

[MARYDVM]

The Brazilian standard for the Fila requires "ojeriza" translated as "hatred" or "ill-will" towards strangers. The original dogs were expected to be profoundly aggressive to anyone they did not live with. Of course, American breeding practices are very different from Brazilian ones. The only way to know what type of temperament you are likely to get is to familiarize yourself with the parents, the line, and the puppies as they develop. One problem I have heard of with some Filas, is high suspicion (correct for the breed) combined with weak nerves(absolutely incorrect for the breed.)

I have owned 5 American Bulldogs at various times. There are some really good ones out there, but they can be hard to find. Know what you want, be prepared to look hard and long, and to wade through a lot of BS. Of my 5, one was a genetic/temperament wreck(from a pedigree that should have produced well) 3 were/are nice dogs, but unsuited for the work I wanted them to do. The young one I am training now finally shows the potential I've been looking for.

[Joanne in NJ]

I have both, and I find that while my dobermans are very rewarding... they are alot of work. You don't find "calm, confident" anywhere in the doberman standard.

My little rottie mix trains a zillion times easier than my little dobie- who has shall we say "poor social skills" . I think at best, they're clingy and at worse- hyper and neurotic. Alot of their brain is devoted to barking at nothing......

The rotties just look at them and sadly shake their heads.....

[Alaskan]

Hello. I've been very interested in the fila for a few years too and have been reading everything I can find on it and the lines. You can join a fila email list and learn a lot more by asking owners of this breed.:) I'll send you a p.m since I'm not sure if I can display the website you need to go to inorder to sign up on it. My spouse's parents had a female dobie years ago that had been badly abused and left with heartworms by her previous owners. They bought her from them and had her treated for heartworms then got her up to a normal weight. She was an excellent dog and extremely intelligent with lots of love to give. I've heard that there is a german breeder of dobies that has an excellent line with drive and beautiful structure but I can't remember who they said the person was offhand.

[German Vanegas]

A typical Fila Brasileiro is a great family companion security dog, however, this a very powerful breed that is not for everybody. It requires experienced handlers only. Filas are excellent guard dogs but the problem is that they have been bred traditionally to protect and guard lives and property. Therefore, Filas are very wary of strangers, aloof, and somewhat antisocial.

Well-bred Dobermans are excellent companion security dogs too, although this breed has been so widely over bred that is hard to find a typical Dobie bred up to desired standards. Unfortunetely, you find that many Dobermans are too sharp and may react with unwanted aggression.

The whole key to it, is to get well-bred dogs, or else you may find yourself in trouble with any of these two breeds.

[Nancy Estes]

Originally posted by MARYDVM
The Brazilian standard for the Fila requires "ojeriza" translated as "hatred" or "ill-will" towards strangers. The original dogs were expected to be profoundly aggressive to anyone they did not live with. Of course, American breeding practices are very different from Brazilian ones. The only way to know what type of temperament you are likely to get is to familiarize yourself with the parents, the line, and the puppies as they develop. One problem I have heard of with some Filas, is high suspicion (correct for the breed) combined with weak nerves(absolutely incorrect for the breed.)

I've only met a few Filas but this is a problem I've seen too. One of the breeds used to create the Fila, as I understand it, was the Bloodhound. A Bloodhound is NEVER supposed to be aggressive and, in fact, is described as *somewhat shy*. This, combined with a Mastiff-type temperament, can be a recipe for disaster.

Nancy

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Nancy Estes
I've only met a few Filas but this is a problem I've seen too. One of the breeds used to create the Fila, as I understand it, was the Bloodhound. A Bloodhound is NEVER supposed to be aggressive and, in fact, is described as *somewhat shy*. This, combined with a Mastiff-type temperament, can be a recipe for disaster.

The "prototype" of the Fila is documented to have been in existence since the mid 1600's by the Colonial Government of Portugal established in Brazil. In the 17th Century, Brazil was well known for its gold mines in the mountains. This created mass migration of people to an area known as Minas Gerais. Those colonizers used slaves to work the land and to mine the gold, and aggressive guard dogs to protect their dominions too. European immigrants who arrived to Brazil brought several different breeds of dogs. The two types most favored were the Mastiff type, prized for its tenacity and strength, and the Bloodhound because of its keen nose. Then when cattle ranching developed to meet the growing demand for food, the original English Bulldog was imported. Those Bulldogs were used to bait the cattle and to protect it from the Jaguar and thieves. That's how is believed that Mastiffs and Bulldogs were crossed with Bloodhounds in Brazil, which eventually created a new breed. This breed was called the Fila Brasileiro and was officially recognized by the F.C.I in 1946.

Bear in mind that the Fila was purposely bred to be an aggressive protector of lives and estates. Also, realise that Filas were wrongly used in the past to hunt down slaves that escaped the plantations. Once Filas caught up with the fleeing slave, the dogs were allowed to mercilessly killed him as deterrance to others!

This breed became known for being a "one man dog" type, or a very close-knit family dog. However, in the 1970's, unscrupulous breeders crossed the Fila with the Great Dane and the Neapolitan Mastiff. This, together with the fact that the Brazilian Kennel Club closed the initial register of the Fila, resulted in near extinction of the breed. In March of 1978 the Fila Brasileiro was rescued by breed fanciers whom formed a club specifically to preserve the desired standards of the breed. The modern Fila is adhered to desired breed standards.

The temperament and character of the Fila is described as follows: "Courage, determination and outstanding braveness. He is docile to his owners and tolerant with children. His faithfulness became a Brazilian proverb. He is always looking for the company of his master. One of his characteristics is his distrust for strangers. He shows a calm disposition, self-assurance and self-confidence. An unsurpassed guardian of property, he is also bred to hunt big game and herd cattle."

As you all can see, the Fila is probably too much dog for most people. Nevertheless, people want guard dogs, so the Fila is becoming increasingly popular. Consequently, some money-driven breeders are selling Filas to who ever is willing to pay for it... and most people really don't know what they are getting into. In my opinion, the Fila Brasileiro does well only in the hands of the very responsible and experienced dog owner. Other than that, you will be keeping a "time bomb clicking" I mean, read: high liability.

I also like to comment on MARYDVM's statement and I quote her: "One problem I have heard of with some Filas, is high suspicion (correct for the breed) combined with weak nerves(absolutely incorrect for the breed.)"... Well, the thing is, how you breed a dog to be so highly suspicious of strangers without a degree of sharpness?!... That is precisely the problem: too much aggression on a sharp dog. It is a genetic trait ;)

By the way, Filas are becoming common sight in Houston... We'll see.

[BIGWRIGHT]

I was searching through some of the old files and I happen to see a list of dogs that German put up as his list of protection dogs. I noticed the Argentinio Dogo (if I spelled it right) was on his list I wanted to know why it was on your list? I have read about the breed and I saw a little of them on dogs that protect as well as had some experience with them and for the most part the are a very senitive breed. The can't be out in the sun for long periods because of skin problems if they do. The can't be roughly played with as young dogs because they can be easily hurt and have a great hip problems. German also mentioned the Presa Canario which I am found of but see some flaws in the breed as being difficult to deal with when training because of some of their over aggressivness and they are vey hard to out once they are on something they hate to stop. So I just wanted to know if my facts were wrong on this breed. I almost received one for free but after hearing and talking to a few owners chose not to get the dog. I started this because we are looking into another breed of dog something different because though I love Rotties the real Rottweiler is becoming harder and harder to find even though they have moved down on the AKC list their are still people out their trying to peddle off garbage and under or overbred wrecks that look good until the reach puberty and decide to show their true bad pedigree's. A friend of mines dealt with a breeder three years ago and brought a rottie from germany and the dog came with excellent pedigree and everything except the pedigree was not that dogs and they dog in question was a badly watered down version of what could have been but never will be. I love my Rotties but you see them now everywhere and not all good like the idiot lady who went into a grocery store for two hours and left her dog chained near the store and guess what after two hours in the sun the dog decided enough was enough and bit a passerby what did she think she had a Yorki terrier. Not that I would leave a Yorkie out their for two hours just like I wouldn't leave a child locked in a car that long either. On the Fila that is a dificult breed to understand because you talk to the owner of the breed and they say the dog is the best thing besides the invention of the VCR but allot of others are saying that the dog is untrustworthy and damn right crazy to own excect around it's owners. I have always love the dobie but your right finding a breeder that has the true dobie well you can just throw a penny in a wishing well for better results the just don't have the dogs of old and for those of you who don't know their is no such thing as a Warlock doberman your better off breeding a great dane with a doberman andjust leaving things at that. Any comments it would be greatly appreciated.

Train don't abuse -

[thoradopter]

Weren't the dogs involved in the death of the woman in San Francisco earlier this year presa canarios? Of course, it was the owners lack of responsibility that allowed it to happen. I bring this up only to highlight the "ticking time bomb" issue associated with certain breeds, especially huge protectors.

[Homerhomer]

Originally posted by German Vanegas


By the way, Filas are becoming common sight in Houston... We'll see.

Geez, that's all we need. Another "bad @#@$" breed being a flavour of the month for macho punks who have no clue about dogs let alone a large difficult and soon to be overbred dog like fila.

I would never consider fila for myself for the the reasons mentioned already by others. Another mistake I think some people make is that they think that they are getting a "friendly giant" and just by looking at the dog they look very friendly. I would rather prefer a dog that has a tougher look (to deter thieves) but is easier to handle.
The dog that I would consider for myself would be french mastiff. It seems to me that well bred french mastiffs are still fairly easy to find in North America. Just talked ot one of the breeders and apparently there are only 50 breeders in North America and one puppy mill in Quebec. Judging by the breed description well bred french mastiff would fit my personality very well, and since many other breeds are so overbread and good dogs from good breeders are very hard to find, perhaps one day in the future I will get a non rescue non rottie.

[MybabyZeus]

Hello,

My parents bred Dobs. They are great dogs. And very loving toward thier owners. That is sometimes the problems with these dogs. They can only have one owner. I lived with Dobs my whole childhood and they are very unpredictible and are prone to biting (especially children). I wouldn't nix the idea of owning one completly but I will say that if you have children, plan on having children, or if you have alot of children visiting your home. I wouldn't have this breed. The males tend to be more nonchalant. The females can and usually are very aggresive. This is another breed in which you have to have experience dealing with in order to own.

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by BIGWRIGHT
I was searching through some of the old files and I happen to see a list of dogs that German put up as his list of protection dogs. I noticed the Argentinio Dogo (if I spelled it right) was on his list I wanted to know why it was on your list? I have read about the breed and I saw a little of them on dogs that protect as well as had some experience with them and for the most part the are a very senitive breed. The can't be out in the sun for long periods because of skin problems if they do. The can't be roughly played with as young dogs because they can be easily hurt and have a great hip problems.

You are repeating what you saw in that video, but I can tell you don't know Dogo Argentinos in person. F.Y.I., Dogos are quite popular here in Texas, where in the summer the temperature reaches over 100 degrees! And the average humidity is 80 to 90%! Now you tell me how well a Rottweiler would do, or any other breed, under such weather conditions?... Not very well, right? The fact is that most breeds are not very tolerant of hot weather. Nevertheless, you find six reputable Dogo breeders in this State, where Dogos are used for protection and game hunting. In regards to your comment as to how easily puppy Dogos can get hurt, I have to say that is unfounded. Dogos are very sturdy and agile too. As you may know, this breed was painstakingly designed, and the end result is a well-put-together “dogo”. Of course, any puppy may get hurt by rough playing, so be careful with puppies of any breed;)

Originally posted by BIGWRIGHT
German also mentioned the Presa Canario which I am found of but see some flaws in the breed as being difficult to deal with when training because of some of their over aggressivness and they are vey hard to out once they are on something they hate to stop. So I just wanted to know if my facts were wrong on this breed.

The Canary Dogo, as it is known nowadays, albeit Perro de Presa Canario is the correct Spanish name, is an excellent breed. However, like any other dog, it all depends on whom you get it from. In the States there are only two breeders I would get a Presa from. Sadly enough, Presa breeders are sprouting everywhere, and the majority of them are even transforming the standards of the breed for a bigger-heavier dog, with no working abilities. I saw "Turco", owned by Alex Vityakin. in a obedience and protection trial, which incidentally "Turco took first place, and it was absolutely awesome to see this Presa performing. How bad is a Presa? It's a bad as poorly bred Rottweiler;)

Originally posted by BIGWRIGHT
On the Fila that is a dificult breed to understand because you talk to the owner of the breed and they say the dog is the best thing besides the invention of the VCR but allot of others are saying that the dog is untrustworthy and damn right crazy to own excect around it's owners.

I got friends who own Filas (There is famous Fila breeder just one hour from Houston). Those dogs can be great family dogs as long as the owner is a responsible, committed and dedicated person, who has experience with large powerful dogs. Other than that, is a high-risk high-liability situation to casually own a Fila to protect. Filas have plenty of aggression and they are not very social. That is my warning.

In regards to the Doberman, I know two reputable breeders that sell working Dobermans with the desired character, temperament and nerves. However, those pups aren't cheap. They come from proven pedigrees.

[thoradopter]

Just to reinforce how bad breeders can misplace huge dogs that require experienced owner...

FYI: Kimbertal had been listing Filas Brasilarias on it's web page. I just went to it to check my memory was correct. Their website has been changed for Christmas. Now only phone calls, no emails are accepted. Rotties are not advertised- only Dobermans and the 13 puppies (!) of Bob Yarrell's 'personal companion', Cinnamon, a Fila (Brasilarios). He must need protection!

[BIGWRIGHT]

Well Thank you german for your insight about the Dogo and the other dogs but I have seen some Dogo's that just were not impressive but then again that is just the two I have seen in here in Japan where their most prized dogs are the Tosa and the Akita and of course the shiba. The other reason I started this topic is because their has been a rush of new breeds coming out always boasting to be better, more aggressive, more protective, stronger than any other breed. It's becoming a nightmare of untrained dogs with terrible breeding roaming the earth. I know of one good kennel for presa Red star where I have seen their dogs work and have worked one their dogs offspring who was a impressive to bite but that's it. Also breed that has tried to come out is the Cane Corso I feel this breed may be a good second to the Rottweiler but i have yet to see any factual working or protection trained Corso's yet. Are Rotties just seem to be the all around dog except the heat factor that German mentioned. German if you could privately e-mail me the name of the breeder that breeds the real dogo I would appreciate it. As for the Fila well that's a issue that I will have to deal with because we were sold on one until I did more reasearch. I love my rottie I just wanted to try another breed to work just as well just to see if any other breed could match up and to add a little variety to our family but sometimes I think I should just stick to the best and forget the rest.

[CajunsMom]

Origianally posted by German
I saw "Turco", owned by Alex Vityakin. in a obedience and protection trial, which incidentally "Turco took first place, and it was absolutely awesome to see this Presa performing.

I too have seen Alex work a Presa, it wasn't "Turco" unfortunately the dog's name escapes me at the moment. But at the trial, Alex went in worked his dog, brought him out and was surrounded by people and kids and the dog stood and allowed people to pet him as many questions were asked of Alex. He is a wonderful handler and cares greatly about his beloved breed. I believe his dog took 4th in that trial.