Bitch unlikely to win Best in Show???

[Nishasmom]

I was watching a dog show yesterday (on T.V.); they said it is unlikely for a female Rottweiler to win Best in Show. Why would this be true?

[fbkeays]

In many breeds, the standard was written with the male in mind. The rottweiler is no exception. So when the judge has the mental perfect picture of a rottweiler, it is of a male. Hence, the bitch doesn't often get BOB. In my completely unscientific opinion I would say that bitches get BOB about 20% of the time.
Then the bitch has to beat the rest of the working group to get into the running for BIS and again, beat the other groups to go BIS. Just getting BOB is hard for a good bitch and then getting a group one for a rottweiler, much less a bitch is that much harder.
I have a friend who has GSD. Her girl took BOB and in the group ring the judge was searching around for the testicles. My friend had to inform the judge that the dog was in fact a bitch. I have seen this bitch and she is NOT doggy at all. The group judge was just assuming that what would make it into the group ring would be a dog, not a bitch. BTW, the group judge is also a GSD breeder too.

[Nishasmom]

Well, that makes sense; thanks for the info. Although, it sounds a little "sexist" if you ask me! Oh well, I hope one of you (show people) can get a female to win! The dogs always look so happy, like they know they are the best :)

Is there ever a show that has just females that compete with each other?

If your dog never wins, how do you recieve "points"? Is it for what place you get, or do they give everyone who enters a point?

Just curious! Thanks

[spidey]

In many breeds as well, however, the standard specifically addresses the differences between the sexes. In some breeds, it's easier for a bitch to do well (a Norwich Terrier bitch won BIS at the AKC Nationals two years ago), but males tend to be flashier and more impressive in many breeds. That said, there were quite a few bitches who won their breeds in the Eukanuba AKC Nationals televised last night.

[fbkeays]

Dog show 101. This is for AKC, other venues may be different. There are two different kinds of show dogs- class dogs and specials. Class dogs (or bitches- being sexist again) are dogs that do not have their championship. The classes are split by sex so dogs do not compete in the same class as bitches (until later, so hold on). Specials are dogs that already have their championship and their sole purpose for being there is to go BOB in hopes of doing well in group and therefore, BIS.
The classes are: 6-9 month puppy, 9-12 month puppy, 12-18 months (youth), Novice (which may be going away and hardly anyone ever enters) American Bred (for dogs 6 months and older who were born in the USA and do not have a championship) and Open(any dog over 6 months of age and was born anywhere).
The winner of each class(still divided by sex) compete against each other for winners dog(or bitch). The winner's dog or bitch now has points towards their championship. Depending on the number of class dogs entered in their sex, the dog can earn anywhere from 0-5 points. Points worth 3-5 points are called majors. A dog needs 15 points under at least 3 judges with at least 2 wins being majors and they have to be under different judges.
Class dogs are judged first, followed by class bitches. The next class is called Best of Breed. The winner's dog and winner's bitch go into that class with all of the specials of both sexes to compete for BOB, Best opposite sex (BOS) and Best of Winners (BOW).
Going BOW can be a very good thing. If one of the sexes has a larger entry then the other and has more points, if the other sex goes BOW, then they get that same number of points. Say there are 2 points in dogs and 3(major) in bitches and the dog (which again has the bias) goes BOW, that dog now has a major instead of just two points. The bitch keeps her major. Again males go BOW about 80% of the time in my unscientific observation. My own Fizbin got two of his 3 majors by going BOW as there was not enough males, but plenty of bitches for a major.
It is possible for a class dog/bitch to go BOB, but not often if there are specials entered. So now you know how a class dog/bitch earns points for their championship. Now the reason why all of those specials enter is to go BOB and hopefully keep on winning. At each level that they win, they have defeated x number of dogs. Say that there were a total of 21 rottweilers entered and a dog goes BOB. They have defeated 20 dogs. They go onto group and take a group 1. Say there were 500 working dogs entered. Now the dogs defeated is 499. Say that same rottweiler then wins BIS and their were 2201 dogs entered in the show, now they have defeated 2200 dogs.
Dogs are ranked by how many dogs that they have defeated. So when you hear about a Top 10 dog, they have won (BOB, or group, or BIS) enough in enough shows to be ranked in the top 10.
Clear as mud?

[brutus'mother]

fbkeays-thanks for posting that info. It certainly is clear as mud! I'll have to read it more than a few times!! The ins and outs are more than a little confusing. Thanks

[TrinaJ]

Originally Posted by fbkeays

Dog show 101. This is for AKC, other venues may be different. There are two different kinds of show dogs- class dogs and specials. Class dogs (or bitches- being sexist again) are dogs that do not have their championship. The classes are split by sex so dogs do not compete in the same class as bitches (until later, so hold on). Specials are dogs that already have their championship and their sole purpose for being there is to go BOB in hopes of doing well in group and therefore, BIS.
The classes are: 6-9 month puppy, 9-12 month puppy, 12-18 months (youth), Novice (which may be going away and hardly anyone ever enters) American Bred (for dogs 6 months and older who were born in the USA and do not have a championship) and Open(any dog over 6 months of age and was born anywhere).
The winner of each class(still divided by sex) compete against each other for winners dog(or bitch). The winner's dog or bitch now has points towards their championship. Depending on the number of class dogs entered in their sex, the dog can earn anywhere from 0-5 points. Points worth 3-5 points are called majors. A dog needs 15 points under at least 3 judges with at least 2 wins being majors and they have to be under different judges.
Class dogs are judged first, followed by class bitches. The next class is called Best of Breed. The winner's dog and winner's bitch go into that class with all of the specials of both sexes to compete for BOB, Best opposite sex (BOS) and Best of Winners (BOW).
Going BOW can be a very good thing. If one of the sexes has a larger entry then the other and has more points, if the other sex goes BOW, then they get that same number of points. Say there are 2 points in dogs and 3(major) in bitches and the dog (which again has the bias) goes BOW, that dog now has a major instead of just two points. The bitch keeps her major. Again males go BOW about 80% of the time in my unscientific observation. My own Fizbin got two of his 3 majors by going BOW as there was not enough males, but plenty of bitches for a major.
It is possible for a class dog/bitch to go BOB, but not often if there are specials entered. So now you know how a class dog/bitch earns points for their championship. Now the reason why all of those specials enter is to go BOB and hopefully keep on winning. At each level that they win, they have defeated x number of dogs. Say that there were a total of 21 rottweilers entered and a dog goes BOB. They have defeated 20 dogs. They go onto group and take a group 1. Say there were 500 working dogs entered. Now the dogs defeated is 499. Say that same rottweiler then wins BIS and their were 2201 dogs entered in the show, now they have defeated 2200 dogs.
Dogs are ranked by how many dogs that they have defeated. So when you hear about a Top 10 dog, they have won (BOB, or group, or BIS) enough in enough shows to be ranked in the top 10.
Clear as mud?

WOW that's very informative, thank you so much. I didn't realise how rare it was for a bitch to win BIB.

[Nishasmom]

thanks for clearing it up! It all makes a little more sense to me now! I have a lot of respect for everyone who shows!

[Mini Me]

I went to a show today, and while I enjoyed the OB classes, I was completely lost watching the conformation rings. I did of course appreciate the beautiful specimens, but this will make it much easier to follow next time I go.

Thanks so much from a total rookie!!

[fbkeays]

Originally Posted by Mini Me

I went to a show today, and while I enjoyed the OB classes, I was completely lost watching the conformation rings. I did of course appreciate the beautiful specimens, but this will make it much easier to follow next time I go.

Thanks so much from a total rookie!!

In Canada it is mostly the same. A few differences is that there is no Ambred class but Canadian Bred. The second difference is when one sex goes BOW, they total ALL of the class dogs and bitches together and apply that total to the point system. Related to that, in CKC shows it takes 10 points under 3 judges with at least one win being 2 points or more.
I hope this helps watching a show easier. It is a process of elimination to find the best dog on that day.

[OnyxGold1]

Excellent post fbkeays!! You made it really simple for the learning conformation world to understand the gist of a dog show in both Canada and the US.

It IS a truly sexist sport....I LOVE my girls tho.......love campaigning a specials female, when you win the breed you are thrilled, if you win the group you are ELATED. In Canada we have had just four BIS winning bitches since 1990.....one in 1991, one in 2002.....and I'm fortunate to say 1 in 2006/1 in 2007 both littermate sisters (owned/bred by me) To win BIS with a bitch is icing on the cake!!!! To win 2 separate BIS with two separate girls that are littermates to my knowledge hasn't happened before in Canada!!

Heather Peters

[JemarsSerena]

Where was all this info when I got in to this mess a year and a half ago! Even after the time I've been doing this I still get confused especially when we take second in our class and forget that we might have to go back in for reserved when the bitch who took the class goes WB.

It is extremely hard to win BOB with a bitch, but with the right bitch it is definitely possible.

[fbkeays]

I knew I was missing a few things, but I should have included reserve winners explaination.
When a dog or bitch goes second place in a class, you have to be on "standby" during the winner's class. If the dog/bitch that took first in the class that your dog/bitch was entered in, goes winner's, then the second place dog/bitch enters the ring for a chance at reserve winner. The premise is that if for any reason that the winner's dog shouldn't have been there that day (entered in the wrong class, wrongly registered, wrong dog, etc) and it is discovered after the fact, the AKC will award the points to the reserve winner. I do know of a few dogs that earned majors that way and finished before they realized they won. The AKC isn't always good about notifying the reserve winner's that they now have those points from some months earlier. But for the most part, it is just considered "runner up".

[warriec]

if you have a bitch that wins best in show she is worth her weight in gold. She will have super offspring passing on good genes

[spidey]

Originally Posted by warriec

if you have a bitch that wins best in show she is worth her weight in gold. She will have super offspring passing on good genes

Sorry, this is absolutely not true. She MAY have good genes, she MAY have good offspring, but simply being a very successful conformation dog does not mean that a dog has good genes OR that they will pass along their good conformation, nor does it mean that a dog is healthy, has an appropriate temperament, or anything else other than that individual dog was the best match for the breed standard and showed well on that particular day at that particular show. Conformation showing is just ONE ingredient of making breeding decisions, it is nowhere near an indication that a dog has good genes that they will pass along (indeed, there are MANY dogs with mediocre success in the breed ring who produce offspring which are far better than themselves, and many other very successful dogs who produce mediocre at best offspring).