Judge dissed veteran dog and USRC

[BostonRott]

Originally Posted by MonteRiehl

OK, here's a twist for you.
Very first paragraph, on the very first page of the www.USRConline.com website very clearly states that they follow the ADRK and FCI standards.
I would assume that all USRC sponsored shows use the ADRK/FCI standard and not the AKC standard and rules.

To me that would mean they have moved away from the AKC/CKC breed standard, and are now using the ADRK/FCI standard adopted in 2000.
The Eliminating faults of the ADRK/FCI standard has a special notation of: Male animals must have two apparently normal testicles fully decended into the scrotum.
It does not state anything about spayed females. It's not entirely fair in that regard.

While I feel really bad for Francis and Duncan, I think the show organizers, the USRC, and the judge have followed their guidelines as best as they can.

Well, that's been said by a lot of people, but there are so many places that USRC differs from ADRK that it's not a valid argument.

We follow that standard, but we also have our own rules. And as we are NOT an FCI country, and neither is USRC an FCI club, there is NO REASON that a foreign judge "must" strictly follow the FCI standard. They are only obligated to judge to the FCI standard in an FCI country. Otherwise, they are a guest of the USRC and agree to judge to the USRC's standard/rules.

We require a SchH title and BST to win Sieger, ADRK does not.
We allow ratings to be given to the Veterans class, ADRK does not.
We allow neutered dogs/bitches in the Veterans class, ADRK does not.
We require a protection routine for the LBST, ADRK does not.
We still have an attack out of the blind in the BST, ADRK does not.

Sorry, but "it's how they do it" does not hold water.

[Judi W]

I suspect that the error was more in the premium list than elsewhere. The class descriptions on the home page simply states age regarding the vet classes and has no comment on whether intact or not. Since it is not commented on, the implication would be that there is nothing exceptional about that class. It is quite possible that the person preparing the premium list had an AKC background and used that knowlege in preparing the premium list, hence the error. (a good reason for careful proofing of materials). From what I can see of the current premium lists available, where veterans classes are offered, there is no exception mentioned for the general requirements.

[MonteRiehl]

Originally Posted by BostonRott

Well, that's been said by a lot of people, but there are so many places that USRC differs from ADRK that it's not a valid argument.

I'm not saying it, I'm pointing to the USRC site that says it. The site thinks that it's so important, they say it first.

Originally Posted by BostonRott

We follow that standard, but we also have our own rules. And as we are NOT an FCI country, and neither is USRC an FCI club, there is NO REASON that a foreign judge "must" strictly follow the FCI standard. They are only obligated to judge to the FCI standard in an FCI country. Otherwise, they are a guest of the USRC and agree to judge to the USRC's standard/rules.

I disagree. The hired judge is a invited consultant who operates under his area of expertise, ADRK/FCI rules. The accepted Heirarchy is ADRK/FCI is the penultimate body when it comes to the rottweiler standard. AKC, is one tier down, USRC is a tier below that. Even if one of the lower tiers imposes their own more or less stringent rules or guidelines, it does not have the authority to impose them on above levels.
When you bring in a judge from a higher tier level in the heirarchy, you cannot expect them to set aside where they came from. The reason you pay them is because they are an expert at that level. That is the "draw" that brings in more registrations.
If a USRC show want a judge to follow the USRC rules, They have to use a USRC certified judge. You cannot legitimately expect anything else. If ADRK/FCI judges (as a body) allowed themselves to have different rules and standards imposed upon them depending on where they are, they would lose the credibility they were hired for.

Originally Posted by BostonRott

We require a SchH title and BST to win Sieger, ADRK does not.
We allow ratings to be given to the Veterans class, ADRK does not.
We allow neutered dogs/bitches in the Veterans class, ADRK does not.
We require a protection routine for the LBST, ADRK does not.
We still have an attack out of the blind in the BST, ADRK does not.

All excellent and noble things. I really like the USRC, however, you cannot impose than on another club's judges when you hire them.

[BostonRott]

Originally Posted by Judi W

I suspect that the error was more in the premium list than elsewhere. The class descriptions on the home page simply states age regarding the vet classes and has no comment on whether intact or not. Since it is not commented on, the implication would be that there is nothing exceptional about that class. It is quite possible that the person preparing the premium list had an AKC background and used that knowlege in preparing the premium list, hence the error. (a good reason for careful proofing of materials). From what I can see of the current premium lists available, where veterans classes are offered, there is no exception mentioned for the general requirements.

It is a USRC rule that vets may be neutered. I've never paid attention to that part of the premium, as I never had a vet to show Good point though.....it should be delineated.

I know that for the NE regional in Oct with the same judge, they decided to drop the class all together to avoid problems.

[BostonRott]

Originally Posted by MonteRiehl

I disagree. The hired judge is a invited consultant who operates under his area of expertise, ADRK/FCI rules.

A judge is an invited guest (invited because of his/her expertise) and expected to follow the rules/standard of the host club. When Steve Wolfson went to Italy and judged the IFR, he did not impose AKC show rules or the AKC standard on the dogs. When Grace Acosta went to ??Portugal (I can't remember the exact country, but it was an FCI one), she too did not impose AKC's standard on the foreign dogs.

USRC models itself after the ADRK, but also has notable differences. When a judge is invited here, he is supposed to sign a contract agreeing to abide our rules and standard. One of our rules allows veterans to be neutered.

I am well aware of who the ADRK judges are, I had Paul Fleige over here to judge my club's show back in '01. He was polite, pleasant and followed our rules.

[lldewe]

>>I suspect that the error was more in the premium list than elsewhere. The class descriptions on the home page simply states age regarding the vet classes and has no comment on whether intact or not. Since it is not commented on, the implication would be that there is nothing exceptional about that class. It is quite possible that the person preparing the premium list had an AKC background and used that knowlege in preparing the premium list, hence the error. (a good reason for careful proofing of materials). From what I can see of the current premium lists available, where veterans classes are offered, there is no exception mentioned for the general requirements.

OK, I'm the person who did the premium. From the premium precisely:

"Entry Information & Requirements:

No dog with missing teeth shall be permitted to enter any class.
The judgment of the Judge or is final. No appeals are possible.
Once a dog is eligible for Champion or Working Class, that dog may not be entered in Open Class. When a dog is eligible for more than one class, the owner determines the entry.
If a dog is eligible for the Sieger/Siegerin Class, that dog may not be entered in any other class except Veteran (as age permits).
Dogs born after June 1st, 1999 in countries with docking laws must be shown with a natural tail.
Copies of required documentation must be submitted with the entry and the originals must be available at the show.
Dogs with Restricted USRC Registrations or AKC Limited Registrations may not enter this show.
Spayed or neutered dogs may not enter this show with the exception of Veteran, Stud Dog, or Brood Bitch.
No dog shall be permitted to enter any class if the entered dog’s registration and support documents are not available at the show for inspection at the time of the class.
If a valid Hip Certification number is not provided on the entry form for dogs over 24 months of age, the number “0” (zero) will be printed in the catalog in the hip rating section for this entry.
Dogs are to be shown in natural stance. Double handling is encouraged. Adult classes will be moved (run) long enough for the judge to evaluate movement. You may change handlers as needed.
Only dogs participating in the show will be allowed on the show grounds. No other dogs will be permitted!"

I honestly CANNOT believe you people are still complaining about this almost a month later! You all really need a real job...

Loralei Dewe
Show Chairman
Wine Country Rottweiler Club

[BostonRott]

Originally Posted by lldewe

I honestly CANNOT believe you people are still complaining about this almost a month later! You all really need a real job...

Loralei Dewe
Show Chairman
Wine Country Rottweiler Club

I don't see any complaining, just a reasonable discussion of the topic. If it bothers you that much, don't read it.

[MonteRiehl]

Originally Posted by BostonRott

A judge is an invited guest (invited because of his/her expertise) and expected to follow the rules/standard of the host club. When Steve Wolfson went to Italy and judged the IFR, he did not impose AKC show rules or the AKC standard on the dogs. When Grace Acosta went to ??Portugal (I can't remember the exact country, but it was an FCI one), she too did not impose AKC's standard on the foreign dogs.

USRC models itself after the ADRK, but also has notable differences. When a judge is invited here, he is supposed to sign a contract agreeing to abide our rules and standard. One of our rules allows veterans to be neutered.

I am well aware of who the ADRK judges are, I had Paul Fleige over here to judge my club's show back in '01. He was polite, pleasant and followed our rules.

*smirk* I'm certainly not talking about their particular show, just what I would expect if I attended a show which had brought in an "expert" from out of country. I do feel really bad about what happened, it seemed to be a little discriminitory to me.

I also have a real job, I'm just not doing it right this moment!

I don't see a conflict in the examples you have given, because I still see the various clubs structure as a Heirarchy(ADRK/FCI, then the Country's main kennel clubs, then the breed's specific club, then the regional/local clubs) .

To bring in a judge from a equal or lower level tier, I would expect them to use the rules of the show sponsor. To bring in a judge from a higher level, I would expect their rules to apply. It's just the way I see it. I also don't organize shows My point of refference is a exhibitor or attendor, not a conviener or sponsor.

I expect that since the USRC is now using ADRK/FCI standards (with a few upgrades/twists) there really isn't much of a conflict. I'm canadian, so that's another can of worms.
When a show or a judge does something that is outside the agreeded upon rules. (now typically ADRK/FCI based) then things get dodgy, and I would go looking for what was published about what was agreed upon.
I am guessing that this is what happened in this particular case.

I guess what I am saying is,
a) I would expect that if I entered any type of show with a ADRK/FCI imported judge, I would expect to be judged under the ADRK/FCI guidelines unless otherwise stated. Even if the show sanctioning club typically had different rules.

b) If that particular show/competition had seperate or special rules/guidelines, I would expect them to be followed as published during the show/competition. (stating that the sanctioning body has leaned on the judge to follow this standard, etc)

c) most shows typically have some of their own special rules/twists, so you have to read and prepare for them. They usually don't go so far as to modify the breed standards, but they should publish which standards they are using as metrics. They should especially do this if they have imported a judge from another club.
(In my limited experience, the show specific rules are usally confined to things like - if your dog deficates in an area outside of the designated areas, you may be disqualified)

Am I really off base here?
If I see the local show has brought in a german korungmeister, and is charging more to cover that additional cost, I should save my money for the next show that has the regular judges because it's cheaper and the results should be the same?

Or do I cough up the extra registration $$ because it's an opportunity to be evaluated ADRK/FCI style without having to travel to Germany? (this is the way I see it)

[BostonRott]

Umm......lemme think:

a) A judge should follow the rules of the club for whom he is judging, as long as it's not in conflict with his liscense. While USRC is structured after the ADRK, there is no heirarchy per se, as they are two totally independant clubs. USRC is part of no structure, except AWDF (and that is a dead end). The heirarchy of the US (officially, as related to the rest of the world) is: AKC - Parent breed club (for us, the ARC). If you were to register a dog with only the USRC but not AKC, you would not be able to sell it outside of the country b/c no other registry would recognize the pedigree. So, I'm a bit confused on the "heirarchy" angle here.

b) I personally see the ADRK judges as the experts in the breed, as Germany is the country of origin. I greatly value their opinion and that is why I did my breed test under an ADRK judge, and had one over for my club's show. Were the club still intact, I would be trying to utilize ADRK judges or USRC's judges as much as possible. That said, when I show under an ADRK judge, I am looking for his opinion on my dogs on that day. But I also expect him to follow the rules of the club.

c) The USRC club rulebook is not available to the general public, but it is a USRC rule that veterans can be shown neutered (as can Stud dogs/Brood bitches).

d) The club was put in a precarious position during this incident.

e) Yes, shows with ADRK judges cost more to enter (usually) because they cost more to host. If you value the opinion of the judge, enter the show, and understand the host club's rules re: classes and ratings.

[fbkeays]

I think this horse is dead. I know the secretary has been unfairly beaten up on this. She followed the rules as set by USRC. She did nothing wrong. I had waited five years to be able to enter my dog in an USRC show. I read the rules before sending in the entry. I expected my dog to be critiqued.
No one involved in that show could have or should have known that the judge would not critique a neutered veteran dog. It took everyone by surprise. Apparently this is the first time a neutered veteran has been dismissed from the ring. It has been a lesson to all.
If I had prior knowledge that the judge would not critique my dog, I would not have entered him. I did not go there to cause trouble. I did not enjoy what happened and I don't want to go though the emotional turmoil again.
I think this subject should be closed. I think that all that can be said, has been said. Any more would be unproductive.