Do you HAVE to hand stack?

[MontanaRott]

Sorry mods if this belongs in training. Do you have to hand stack your dog in the AKC ring? Or if they will self stack is that acceptable??

[Judy Chrusch]

Shirley self stacking is ultimately what everyone wishes for but in most cases you have to adjust a leg or two and then hope they don't move, lol. Czar got to the point where he went right into his stack and once in awhile had to be adjusted but for the most part held it for the duration needed. Our handler would move his body towards Czar the way he wanted him to move w/o even laying a hand on him sometimes.

Heck if you can stack him w/o your hands, then you're good :D . But you probably will have to adjust his front or the back at some point and time. But yes they can self stack so long as he stands the correct way. I hope this answers your question.

Judy

[MontanaRott]

Originally Posted by Judy Chrusch

Shirley self stacking is ultimately what everyone wishes for but in most cases you have to adjust a leg or two and then hope they don't move, lol. Czar got to the point where he went right into his stack and once in awhile had to be adjusted but for the most part held it for the duration needed. Our handler would move his body towards Czar the way he wanted him to move w/o even laying a hand on him sometimes.

Heck if you can stack him w/o your hands, then you're good :D . But you probably will have to adjust his front or the back at some point and time. But yes they can self stack so long as he stands the correct way. I hope this answers your question.

Judy

Yes it does, Judy, thank you. We just wondered, if he was stacked nicely on his own if that would do. He really hits a stack better on his own, and holds it better, if you keep your hands off of him. He tends to want to sit down if you fiddle with his legs to much.

[Rott-Wiley]

Isn't that always the way it is? The best stack they ever get into is going to be out in the back yard where only the owner and their closest friends will ever see. Seriously, the less you have to move his feet, the better. A lot of owners will send their dogs out with a professional handler just to have them learn how to set up in the ring.

[samanthac]

Originally Posted by Rott-Wiley

Isn't that always the way it is? The best stack they ever get into is going to be out in the back yard where only the owner and their closest friends will ever see.

:D....isn't that the truth. And then they hold it right just until the very second you click the camera and the picture ends up looking like a drunk black and tan mutant playing twister with his buddies! :D

[MontanaRott]

LOL! Samantha and RW, you are so right! He did stack nicely in the show and go on saturday as long as Phil DID NOT touch him!

[Rotty4Me]

The ultimate is the dog with such perfect conformation that he/she free stacks like a statuesque piece of artistry, ;) , but more often than not our dogs do need some help. There are dogs that like to "over" stack themselves. I had a bitch that loved to "hyper" free stack & would inevitably end up with her rear way too far behind her. That is just as bad a picture as having the rear too far under them. The judge prefers to see the dog standing square. All four feet squarely placed underneath itself. Also in a hand stack you can bait the dog over the top of it's collar & really show off the head piece in this manner. Free stacks are required however, after doing a down & back. It's something your dog does need to know & you can help guide the dog into place by where you hold your bait out in front of him/her. They can learn little cues as to tapping the finger on the bait means to step forward, or holding the bait over the top of the head to get them to step back. My dogs also know verbal language...ie: "take a step," "stretch," etc. Of course a good handler can also hide faults by hand stacking a dog. Same thing in the German ring. A dog with a bad topline can be taught to really stretch it's rear out to hide it. To me, the real test of correct conformation comes with the movement of the dog. So teaching a dog to gait correctly & in balance (as much as it's conformation will allow) is also part of your presence in any ring.

Maureen

[fbkeays]

No you do not have to hand stack. My Duncan was the easiest dog to show while stationary. He would not get out of his stack for nothing, except to lay down He hated to show and showed that by gaiting badly, but he had a four square stack to die for. In herding, his gait is beautiful and when he is told to stop- perfect four square stack. People always ask if he is a champion because of how he moves and stands.
I can't get Fizbin to free stack. I don't know if it is because I am his owner or that we do all of the performance stuff, but he just doesn't get it. When I try, he usually does his "club foot" thing. He has a beautiful front- not eastie-westie at all, except for me. He will turn his right foot straight out. His handler doesn't have to hand stack him much any more. Fizbin does like to over or under stack his rear depending on the surface he is on.

[poohbearsmom]

I recently attended a show here in the South, and the 6-9mos male class was in the ring. A friend of mine had her pup in (no ring experience) the ring... the pup was fidgeting when my friend touched him, so she opted to free stack.... The judge demanded that she hand stack her pup. She said no, the pup was fighting it... the judge then gave her a lecture on the importance of training, behavior in the ring, blah blah blah (this is a youth dog, remember).... judge let my friend move the dog to calm him down, then told her to hand stack him again.... by this time, pup was getting frazzled, and would not show his teeth... pup excused from ring.

Not good behavior on the judge's behalf, IMHO, but things like this do happen.

[Rott-Wiley]

Geez, in a puppy class yet? The trouble is, these judges get it in their head what they want to see in the ring and if you don't fall into that mold, forget it. From what you said, I'm sure the dog didn't get put up.

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by poohbearsmom

I recently attended a show here in the South, and the 6-9mos male class was in the ring. A friend of mine had her pup in (no ring experience) the ring... the pup was fidgeting when my friend touched him, so she opted to free stack.... The judge demanded that she hand stack her pup. She said no, the pup was fighting it... the judge then gave her a lecture on the importance of training, behavior in the ring, blah blah blah (this is a youth dog, remember).... judge let my friend move the dog to calm him down, then told her to hand stack him again.... by this time, pup was getting frazzled, and would not show his teeth... pup excused from ring.

Not good behavior on the judge's behalf, IMHO, but things like this do happen.

Yes, it was bad behaviour, but on the other hand, I can see where the judge was coming from. If the pup's 'self stack' wasn't really stacked, then how can they properly judge the pup's conformatin and compare it to the others?

So yes, everyone hopes to free stack - but if it isn't a true, square free stack, you'll have to fix it. So yes, you have to hand stack if they won't free stack properly. And if they won't free stack, yes, you have to train them to submit to hand stacking - which would be where the judges' comments came in. But they should have known better than to stress the puppy - they just should have judged him accordingly and moved on.

There's a product called Happy Legs: http://www.happylegs.com

This basically gets the pup or dog up on little stilts in the proper stack position. Since they are up in the air, there's a consequence to them stepping off. Feed them treats, say "Good show!" or whatever word you want. if they step off, correct them, put them back on, "Good Show!" again - just like any other training, they'll get the point.

Standing them on the stilts also helps them build those muscles so that the stack is a comfortable stance for them. They'll eventually go into it naturally.

It's a tool you might want to look into if you want to train the free stack at home. :)

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by TrishB

Yes, it was bad behaviour, but on the other hand, I can see where the judge was coming from. If the pup's 'self stack' wasn't really stacked, then how can they properly judge the pup's conformatin and compare it to the others?

So yes, everyone hopes to free stack - but if it isn't a true, square free stack, you'll have to fix it. So yes, you have to hand stack if they won't free stack properly. And if they won't free stack, yes, you have to train them to submit to hand stacking - which would be where the judges' comments came in. But they should have known better than to stress the puppy - they just should have judged him accordingly and moved on.

There's a product called Happy Legs: http://www.happylegs.com

This basically gets the pup or dog up on little stilts in the proper stack position. Since they are up in the air, there's a consequence to them stepping off. Feed them treats, say "Good show!" or whatever word you want. if they step off, correct them, put them back on, "Good Show!" again - just like any other training, they'll get the point.

Standing them on the stilts also helps them build those muscles so that the stack is a comfortable stance for them. They'll eventually go into it naturally.

It's a tool you might want to look into if you want to train the free stack at home. :)

Thanks for the advice, and I've also heard you can save a bunch of money by using #10 cans, which I will do the next pup I have.

I was only relating an incident, because some judges apparently DO require a hand stack (the pup was doing fine, just wasn't down with the back legs being fiddled with). It was this pup's first time in the ring, my friend was there for ring experience (and this one turned out not so great, thanks to the judge and her attitude) .....regardless, it's not a judge's job to belittle someone, lecture or YELL (which she did) at an entrant who has paid the judge to judge the dog.

I hold this particular judge with the same low regard as the judge who had his back turned away from my girl as she moved around the ring.... manners and courtesy should be afforded to someone bringing their dog in for judging. That's all.

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by Rott-Wiley

Geez, in a puppy class yet? The trouble is, these judges get it in their head what they want to see in the ring and if you don't fall into that mold, forget it. From what you said, I'm sure the dog didn't get put up.

No kidding. I believe a complaint has been filed with the AKC regarding the judge's behavior. If not, it should be. Wish I'd thought of complaining to the AKC whent the judge didn't watch my bitch move around the ring. I don't care if the judge has made up his mind, at least give me the common courtesy of earning the entry fee I've paid. ;)

It's not a judge's place to belittle, yell, or otherwise lecture about proper handling.... I've been winked at by judge's who found humor in my handling skills (LOL), but never have I been berated like my friend was.

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by poohbearsmom

No kidding. I believe a complaint has been filed with the AKC regarding the judge's behavior. If not, it should be. Wish I'd thought of complaining to the AKC whent the judge didn't watch my bitch move around the ring. I don't care if the judge has made up his mind, at least give me the common courtesy of earning the entry fee I've paid. ;)

It's not a judge's place to belittle, yell, or otherwise lecture about proper handling.... I've been winked at by judge's who found humor in my handling skills (LOL), but never have I been berated like my friend was.

So you know - I agree with you 100%. If the judge wanted the dog to be stacked better, that's one thing. But no one PAYS MONEY to be lectured and belittled in public.

Do what I do - never show to that judge again. With enough people not entering under them, they'll be out of a job. :p

And yes, you paid for them to judge your girl so they should have watched. That sort of behaviour is just rude and ignorant. :p

[SABELLESMOM]

I realise this is a bit off the track, but I'll just toss it out anyway. There is ONE judge I refuse to ever show with again. She arranges the dog in order of size, no matter what else is good and bad about them. We had a cowhocked dog ahead of us, and one with a terrible topline and poor tailset. My bitch at the time, was about 78 lbs, and could have been a bit more mature, but she IS correct.

Then, and it only happened with the bitches not the dogs. ONE bitch has an exceptional gait and she at least pulled her foreward. Otherwise? It was like canisters on a shelf! It was disgusting!