Puppy Russian Roulette?

[Boudica]

Hi Guys,

I've been trolling these boards for two or three weeks while now - just doing generic research on the breed/selecting a breeder etc and know enough that what I could do in the future contains some risk - but it's the degree of risk that I'm uncertain about - and I'd love some sounding boards

Here's my dilemma.

In New Zealand it is still legal to dock. Trouble is I have a strong preference for a tail. (not looking for a debate here!)I've started looking for "good breeders" and making contact trying to feel my way around - no hurry - as we won't be ready till late in the year - and it will be our first Rottie. The problem is each and everyone I've contacted still docks. They don't alternate litters with tails/without tails, so ironically not a lot of choice! At least not in my region. In discussion I've found a breeder who states that she doesn't like docking but they are expected to dock - so if I want a puppy to keep their tail it means selecting a pup at 3 days old! Ergo can not g/tee temperament. Now given that breeders are breeding for temperament as much as physical conformation what is the degree of risk I'd be taking if I'm able to find a breeder who is trying to breed a dog that has the right "properties" for someone like myself? On a scale of 1-10 where 1... is minimal - stop ya worrying! to 10 is... "definately not worth the risk"?

The only people I've found so far who keep tails are BYBs

Apologies if I've missed a relevant thread - this place is cavernous in size - even using the search function!

Yes I'm still looking for breeders - but this is a small country - so options can limit very fast!

[ajemons]

I do believe there may be a couple of litters coming up who are going to (possibly ?) be left undocked. Of course that may not eventuate anyway so I wouldn't hold my breath
Have you thought about bringing one in from Australia ?
Back to your original question; As long as the puppies are from stable parents (temperamentwise), I wouldn't worry too much. Even getting the 'pick' puppy at 8 weeks can still have more than a small degree of luck involved.
A HUGE amount of the pups develpment depends on what YOU do, and how it's reared.
Do you have any plans for the pup other than as a family companion ?
Welcome to the forum by the way
Alison

[LunaBelle]

Hi there!

Up until a couple of years ago, we had the same situation in South Africa. This has mostly changed, since our Kennel Union follows the German standard quite strictly, but it is still legal (grey area) for breeders to dock. One of our ethical breeders still dock, and will present their prospective buyers with the same option as this breeder has offered you. As in New Zealand, we also have only a few COE breeders to choose from, so if you want a show quality pup this is very limiting. So in short, I know how you feel, and it's very frustrating.

When selecting a pup (and therefore breeder), you need to take 3 things into account namely, health, looks and temperament.

1) Health - If the parents and grandparents of the litter was health tested (hips, elbows, eyes and heart) waiting until 8 weeks will not give you more clarity on the medical future of any of the prospective pups. It's not a sure thing, but all the pups will have the same chances to be healthy.

2) Looks - Pups from the same litter can differ quite a bit, in personality and looks, while still adhering to the standard. If you're not interested to get the 'pick of the litter' and don't specifically want to show in conformation, I would not worry about looks too much. If the parents and grandparents conform to the standard, the pups should be according to the rottie standard as well.

3) Temperament - In my opinion, this is the clincher. As with looks, pups from the same litter can differ quite a bit in personality. If the temperament of the parents, grandparents etc was sound (i.e. if this is an ethical breeder who breeds for temperament), the pups will all have a very good chance of having a good stable temperament. But in one litter, you may have one or a couple of very dominant pups (while still sound of temperament), some less dominant pups and some very laid back ones. At 3 days old it would be impossible to know the difference.

In the end, I think it will depend on your home environment, and what you are looking for in a dog (how flexible are you). If you would be able to handle and love both a very laid back dog, as well as a very drivey, dominant dog, I would go for this option. If your situation at home is not very flexible, or you are not sure of your ability to handle a high drive dog, I would rather sacrifice on the side of looks have the breeder select a pup for you at 8 weeks, after a puppy test has been done and you know more about the characters.

[freakygoldfish]

As I see it, you can:

1) keep looking

2) import a dog/puppy

3) decide that health, temperment and finding a good breeder who will be there to support you and your puppy are more important that whether your pup has a tail or not.

[plateau4us]

Please find a coe breeder who breeds for health and temperament. If you are not looking to "show" your dog, than the deciding factor really must be for stability in these areas, not the presence or absence of a tail, despite your preference.

Please, spend some more time on this board.

I believe you will realize that finding an appropriate breeding with a knowledgeable breeder, who can offer you a strong support system, whom you can trust, and will be there in the event you need more advice than a board can offer, will be far more valuable to you than a tail.

Give yourself the best possible chance for success and do not discount those breeders who dock but trust the breeder you pick to point you in the direction of the appropriate pup for you and your lifestyle.

Good luck in your search!

[Boudica]

Thanks for the advice. Of course finding a good breeder who'll support me is most important! But I'm hoping there's going to be more than one in this land of mine...My whole point is what-if I don't find a breeder that meets my "criteria" who doesn't dock? Was the suggestion to select a pup at 3 days a BAD option as opposed to one with a small amount of risk...

Given LunaBelle's comments, I had a long chat with the SO about what if we end up with a high drive dog (Assuming it's normal to have one pup in a litter of 8-10 that high-drive when the breeder is not aiming for that then we are still talking a >10% chance of getting one). Given our flexibility and a higher than-what-I-originally-thought chance of a high drive puppy We're thinking that it's not worth selecting a pup at 3 days old...I know a lot of the pup development is up to us but I'd like a bit more experience first.

Now the question remains is far wide shall I cast the net?

Tauranga's easy (Glad there are other kiwi's knocking about in here) But SI? may as well look to Oz as there probably not much difference in cost But that's *probably* beyond what I'm prepared to go.

[brunie's mom]

I know that it is against the COE for the RCC to allow some puppies to have their tails docked and some left. They either dock the whole litter, or they leave the whole litter with tails.
There is no way you can tell on a 3 day old puppy which one is going to be high drive, or even show potential...or much of anything.
Buy a puppy from a breeder that you like and take it from there. If you like tails...go to a breeder that leaves tails, or buy from a country where tails are left undocked.

Gina

[ajemons]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

I know that it is against the COE for the RCC to allow some puppies to have their tails docked and some left. They either dock the whole litter, or they leave the whole litter with tails.
Gina

Do you know their reasoning behind this ?
I can understand it a a personal preference, but to actually dictate in a Clubs rules seems inexplicably arbitury.
Alison

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by ajemons

Do you know their reasoning behind this ?
I can understand it a a personal preference, but to actually dictate in a Clubs rules seems inexplicably arbitury.
Alison

They don't want puppy buyers to have tails removed after the 2-3 day mark. If a puppy buyer wants tails...they buy from a breeder that leaves tails, if they want a docked puppy...they buy from a breeder that docks the whole litter.

In Canada, both tailed dogs and docked dogs are accepted.

Gina

[ajemons]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

They don't want puppy buyers to have tails removed after the 2-3 day mark. If a puppy buyer wants tails...they buy from a breeder that leaves tails, if they want a docked puppy...they buy from a breeder that docks the whole litter.

In Canada, both tailed dogs and docked dogs are accepted.

Gina

I suppose that makes sense, though surely breeders wouldn't be docking after that stage ? Dunno,... it's still seems rather dictatorial to me. I do know one breeder over here who had a pup born with white on her chest, so he decided to leave her undocked as obviously she was never going to be a showgirl. That sort of freedom of choice seems far preferable.
Both docked and undocked dogs are acceptable in New Zealand also. In fact just recently the first undocked Champion was made up.
Thanks for the info, Alison

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by Boudica

Hi Guys,

I've been trolling these boards for two or three weeks while now - just doing generic research on the breed/selecting a breeder etc and know enough that what I could do in the future contains some risk - but it's the degree of risk that I'm uncertain about - and I'd love some sounding boards

Here's my dilemma.

In New Zealand it is still legal to dock. Trouble is I have a strong preference for a tail. (not looking for a debate here!)I've started looking for "good breeders" and making contact trying to feel my way around - no hurry - as we won't be ready till late in the year - and it will be our first Rottie. The problem is each and everyone I've contacted still docks. They don't alternate litters with tails/without tails, so ironically not a lot of choice! At least not in my region. In discussion I've found a breeder who states that she doesn't like docking but they are expected to dock - so if I want a puppy to keep their tail it means selecting a pup at 3 days old! Ergo can not g/tee temperament. Now given that breeders are breeding for temperament as much as physical conformation what is the degree of risk I'd be taking if I'm able to find a breeder who is trying to breed a dog that has the right "properties" for someone like myself? On a scale of 1-10 where 1... is minimal - stop ya worrying! to 10 is... "definately not worth the risk"?

The only people I've found so far who keep tails are BYBs

Apologies if I've missed a relevant thread - this place is cavernous in size - even using the search function!

Yes I'm still looking for breeders - but this is a small country - so options can limit very fast!

A breeder should either dock or not - the entire litter. It is impossible to tell at 3-7 days of age what a pup will turn out to be; or even if it will survive past two weeks of age. Any breeder who would leave a tail on one puppy to please a buyer (no offense to you personally!) is a breeder I would run from.

It is me, the breeder, who chooses which pup goes to whom, and that's not a decision that's made the first week of life.

Do you have any working dog clubs in NZ? What about Australian breeders?

[Boudica]

Thank Poohbearsmom, Yes - we have a working dog association in Auckland...Thank you - now where's the emoticon that's banging it's head on the table? lol! I'll check them out...

[Mick Trainer]

What about Australian breeders? I know some pretty good breeders in Aust? :)

Mick.

[ajemons]

To capture two posts;
Mick Trainer I had already mentioned Australia as an option.
To Boudica;
With regard to the Working Dog Association, are you sure this isn't just a Group Club for confirmation ? (Same as a Toy Breeds Club for example). (I share your pain with emoticons btw)
If you check out the website of the Rottweiler Club (Auckland) they used to have a link to a Schutzhund site. (Sorry I cannot for the life of me remember the web address, but if you google Auckland Rottweiler Club I'm sure it will come up). That site though is primarily GSD orientated, although Rotts are welcome.
There is a Schutzhund club in the Hawkes Bay, and I think possibly the Waikato. You may (or may not !!) get a link from the Rott Club. If I can track down the web address I'll post it later. To be honest NZ Rott's aren't that 'into' working.
I did attend one nights training at the Hawkes Bay branch when I was picking up my puppy as her breeders 'played' with Schutzhund. My boys sire did do Schutzhund, but his owner decided GSD's were more appropriate and has since changed her breed.
I'm sure you'll end up loving your puppy tail or not :))))
Alison

[rottielover2004]

I agree about not knowing at such a young age, here is me for a good example what I thought would have been a good pick at 6 weeks was not, The puppy was chosen for me after 7 1/2 weeks old and she was right on the money. If I chose at a young age, I would have not had the dog I needed :)