Spaying/Neutering and COE Breeders

[angel girl]

A recent post I made raised an issue with another poster regarding spaying and neutering of puppies and COE breeders. It’s my preference to not alter an animal unless there is a medical reason to do so (pyometra, testicular/ovarian cancer, mono/cyptorid, etc).

As I stated in that previous thread I used to be a pet owner that thought to be responsible meant your dog had to be altered at 6 months (I never did believe in early, early altering). In recent years I have come to believe that those pesky hormones not only cause annoying, teenage behaviors but are necessary for proper growth and maturing. I then shifted my belief to believing it was right to wait until 2 years. This was convenient as any future pup will have their hips and elbows x-rayed and sent to OFA or OVC. It would be simple to x-ray while the pup was anesthetized for altering. Further reading made me evolve my decision to not neuter a male at all unless medically necessary. I still believed in spaying a female if she wasn’t to be used for breeding (after 2 years/physical maturity). I couldn’t imagine dealing with pyometra (my biggest fear), and dealing with a heat cycle (from a dog who bled a lot or didn’t keep herself clean) was not something I wanted to deal with either. With the new study released by Dr. Waters’ on the link between longevity and spaying I am starting to believe that the conveniences and claimed health benefits of altering do not offset the risks of keeping an animal intact. I am now leaning towards now not altering a female unless medically necessary as well, but my mind on this is hardly made up yet.

However, the point was raised that with these beliefs I may not be able to find a COE breeder to buy from or a rescue to work with. I’m not planning on a rescue for my next dog so I wanted to check out if that was true about buying from a breeder. This is what I found from the two clubs that would most affect myself, plus the national American clubs since most of the members here are American. The following are not direct quotes from the clubs’ codes but a brief summary and link.

Rottweiler Club of Canada-puppies not sold as working, show, or breeding stock are strongly recommended to be registered with the CKC on non-breeding contract, altering should be encouraged but is not a requirement (Section 5.G and 5.H)

http://www.rottclub.ca/COE2009.doc

Canadian Kennel Club-advises that altering should be actively encouraged but not a COE requirement (in their Selling Practices section)

CKC Breeder Code of Practice

American Rottweiler Club-requires all puppies not sold as show/breeding quality to be altered and AKC limited registration provided or papers withheld until veterinarian’s proof of sterilization is received. (Section 3.11)

American Rottweiler Club Mandatory Practices

United States Rottweiler Club-I found no provisions on their website with regards to altering pet puppies, input is welcome from their members.

So according the above, only the ARC requires all pets be altered although it doesn’t say by what age. I could still possibly find a COE breeder in good standing with the RCC and CKC that does not require altering. I do not plan on breeding; obedience, agility, and Rally-O competition are the main activities I want to participate in. A couple years from now I may be more interested in conformation but am fairly certain I will never campaign a dog. Right now I just follow the stats in the Dogs In Canada July issue.

I will be joining the CKC next year (too many other expenses this year and membership year starts in January) so will be bound by their by-laws including not breeding mix breeds/unregistered dogs. I have no problem signing and adhering to a non-breeding agreement registered with the CKC.

The Animal Pedigree Act makes it a criminal offense (fraud?) to sell an animal as purebred without being registered with an organization that is incorporated under said Act. I have a job now (alarm company) and am applying for one soon (RCMP civilian member but need the benefits of the current job for a couple months longer) that require a clear criminal back ground check. In fact, an outstanding judgment after being sued for breach of contract could and most likely would prevent me from getting the RCMP job. A criminal charge for fraud (selling puppies as purebred without papers) WILL prevent me from getting this job and it WILL get me fired from my current one. Breaking a contract or the law is not an option if I want to continue to be employed or get a better job, and that is just the legal stand point.

It says nothing of my own personal commitment to keeping my word. The law should give a breeder reassurance if she needs it. However, I would hope that if a breeder was not absolutely sure I would hold to the contract (whether it required altering or not) that they would not sell to me. These are my own personal circumstances and feelings.

I think it can be looked at this way: If a breeder doesn’t trust a buyer to prevent breeding can they really trust the buyer to alter the puppy when they prescribe? Once the puppy goes home the breeder often doesn’t have much actual control over whether the pup is fixed or not, especially if it is a long distance away. It would take a lot of money to enforce the contract across provinces if the buyer violated it, so it is often really on faith and what the breeder feels about the buyers that they believe the pup will be altered.

I’d like to hear anyone else’s opinions on this matter.

[fbkeays]

I have bred one litter. I have in my contract that the dog be spayed/neutered between 12 and 28 months UNLESS otherwise agreed to in this contract. I didn't place all of my puppies and the ones I did place, I really wanted them to stay intact. The owners really wanted them fixed.
Being on the breeder side of things vs the buyer is a very different place. From the buyers side, I do have a track record of showing and working my dogs. I also have had both male and female intact dogs and successfully be able to prevent unwanted pregnancies.
With the new research coming out with the negatives of spaying and neutering, I would think that buyers with a proven record of responsibly owning intact dogs would not be required to s/n a "pet" dog. I know that I would be willing as a breeder to place a puppy with such a person. It is hard, very hard though.

[brutus'mother]

I would think that many of the COE breeders may entertain the idea of ammending their contract based on recent studies related to sterilization. I'm sure it would have to be based on individual owners and what that owners ability is to succesfully own an intact Rott. The COE breeders I have developed relationships with have the pups wellbeing at the center of all decisons they make regarding placement. Maybe some of the COE breeders will chime in and give their opinion on this topic...? It would be interesting to hear what their thoughts are.

[brunie's mom]

Honestly , I cannot see a COE breeder allowing a pet/companion owner to keep their dog intact after a certain age. As we see here almost every week...we have dog owner's having accidental litters.

Also if you plan on doing obedience, rally, agility,etc. everytime the dog is in heat she cannot compete. Even going to obedience classes with a female in heat is not much fun.

We also must remember that keeping a dog intact and never allowing it to breed goes against nature. Of course we cannot let them have litter after litter in this day and age....but that is what is most healthy for female dogs. This is what keeps their uterus healthy.

I've got a 9 month old puppy in full heat right now...and it's not all that fun...for her or for us. I could not imagine letting her go through this twice a year. To me it's cruel. I'm not planning on showing her,or ever breeding...why should I make her go through this??

She will be spayed after 12 months of age. This is what the breeder requires. It will probably be around 14 months of age.

Let's face it this breed is not healthy...they do not live long either spayed/neutered or being left intact. We've had owner's here with intact dogs as young as 5 dying with cancer.

Working as a vet tech, and assisting in emergency pyometra surgeries is also something that I will always remember. Owner's crying.....thinking it would not happen to their dog...but it does. Also slicing into mammary tumors and trying to take large margines of tissue...is something else that is preventable.

I could never put my dog through this.

Gina

[Canula2000]

with the use of limited akc registrations I don't see the need for a spay and neuter contract, however I think any good breeder should have a non-breeding statement in their contract for pet puppies.

I totally agree with your statement:

I think it can be looked at this way: If a breeder doesn’t trust a buyer to prevent breeding can they really trust the buyer to alter the puppy when they prescribe? Once the puppy goes home the breeder often doesn’t have much actual control over whether the pup is fixed or not, especially if it is a long distance away.

Also as far as not spaying a female, with each heat cycle the risk of pyometra (sp?) is greater. I personally prefer to have a female go through one heat cycle to avoid UTI problems in the future but if she is only a pet spaying is the best option.

All rescue/shelter dogs should be spayed/neutered prior to re-homing. Most of them have already been bred once or twice...just doesn't make sense to keep them intact.

[MarthaG]

I have a question about spaying and COE breeders. I never heard of the CKC not the Canadian one until I looked at rotties for sale. I wonder if that is how puppies got into that registration or not registered at all and people breed them and sell them that way?

[MarthaG]

One more thought. I never heard of buying a purebred dog that wasn't registered with the AKC back in the 70s. I also noticed the prices for unregistered dogs cost what a registered dog cost back in the 70s and 80s. The prices I have seen for some registered rotties causes sticker shock to my old mind. I guess inflation has caused the increase but how people can breed unpapered dogs is beyond me.

[JemarsSerena]

My plan is to "reccomend" that owners wait until 24 months to alter their pup. I will not tell an owner that they can't. I just want to see the pups grow to their full potential so I can know what my lines produce. All pups will be sold on a limited registration anyway to discourage frivolous breeding.

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by JemarsSerena

My plan is to "reccomend" that owners wait until 24 months to alter their pup. I will not tell an owner that they can't. I just want to see the pups grow to their full potential so I can know what my lines produce. All pups will be sold on a limited registration anyway to discourage frivolous breeding.

The problem with what you recommend, and what the new pet owners will do...may be another story. Don't forget...that many vets are on the early spay/neuter bandwagon. My own vet and their staff has been pushing for Jemma to be spayed at 6 months. I've been adamant that it will be after 12 months, and that's also the contract I signed with my breeder. I think I've educated myself over the years....but often a puppy owner is pulled in one direction with their vet, and in another direction with their breeder.

You really should have in your adoption contract at what age, or after what age they will be allowed to be spayed/neutered.
You do have control, if you want it.

Also some pet owner's may not realize, by waiting till your pup has had a heat...most vet's consider it a 'mature spay' and do charge more...also the more the dog weighs...the more the spay costs.

It's probably costing me an extra $200. for spaying her later. Just something to think about if you are on a budget .

Gina

[brutus'mother]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

We also must remember that keeping a dog intact and never allowing it to breed goes against nature.

I think the arguement can be made that sterilization also goes against nature.

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

Let's face it this breed is not healthy...they do not live long either spayed/neutered or being left intact. We've had owner's here with intact dogs as young as 5 dying with cancer.

I agree our breed faces many health issues. However, with recent studies citing sterilzation as adding additional health risks, shouldn't we attempt to stack the odds in our favor?

This topic is another reason why screening potential owners is so important. If a breeder is taking the time to get to know potential puppy owners, a certain degree of trust should be established. A COE breeder should be able to determine if an owner is able to successfully own an intact dog. Is it foolproof? Absolutely not, but again, I would think knowledgabe breeders would consider ammending their stipulation of spay/neuter based on the owner. It certainly would have to be on a case by case basis.

[MarthaG]

I am really enjoying this thread. So much in this area I don't know or understand. Because of the Internet and forums like RDN it makes me think about issues that never entered my mind before. I wonder about nature and hormones and health issues around our rotties. My last rottie died at 9 and he was never used for breeding. 9 seems to be a good length of life for a rottie even though I thought it was a short life. I know if a woman has a hysterectomy early in life her bones will become more fragile earlier then a woman who goes thru menopause at the normal age. Are dogs the same? What do hormones do?

[lrushe]

I had Brook booked in to get spayed on Jan 26th (she would have been 6 and a half months) but ended up cancelling after reading all the new information coming out. I'm by no means an expert so I spoke to my vet (who I do trust) and he was all for me getting her spayed but there was a little voice in the back of my mind that just wasn't happy with it. I will get her spayed at some stage as I've no intentions of breeding (Brook is endorsed anyway) but I think she will be 18 months at the earlies, it just seems to make sense to me that they need those all important hormones to mature and grow. My last dog, which was a German Shephard, was never altered and she lived a healthy 13 years so I'm used to having an unaltered dog (and no pregnancies!) coming into heat twice year

[TexasCLorenz]

As far as humans go, I had a hysterectomy at 28. I've also had a bone density test last year (I'm 54) My bones are fine! For humans, it has more to do with your diet, the amount of exercise you get, and genetics. I would think that for dogs it would be similar. My dogs that were altered early, were as healthy and lived just as long (in many cases longer) than the ones that I adopted after they had been bred several times.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by MarthaG

I know if a woman has a hysterectomy early in life her bones will become more fragile earlier then a woman who goes thru menopause at the normal age. Are dogs the same? What do hormones do?

Dogs do not go through menopause, nor do they develop osteoporosis.

Hormones play a huge role in development through to maturity, including the sex hormones. I actually think timing is a BIG consideration when deciding the best age to spay/neuter. I'm surprised I don't see "timing" mentioned more often. It is well known that the action of sex hormones signals the body to close the growth plates, and further, that different growth plates typically close at different times (i.e., the femur growth plates close around 8 months and the tibia growth plates normally close by 14 months). In light of this, what happens to a dog's structure when they are desexed at, say, 11 months? If some of the growth plates have closed and others have not, some bones will keep growing and some will not, angles will be skewed, stresses introduced to ligaments and other connective tissue that can result in very expensive veterinary intervention that may or may not "solve" the problem.

If I were a breeder (which I'm not ), I would not want to see any little ones I sent out into the big ol' world desexed prior to full maturity.

[MarthaG]

moondog that really makes sense to me.